CvS2 wasnt in SBO3 unfortunately.
for makiā¦
if i have a charge and end a 720 with qcf + p, will the genko always come out instead of the 720 super? or if i end the motion in the air on the wall with qcb + p, will wall move come out instead of super?
when can i start buffering the 720 motion? when does the 720 motion i start get reset? can i start the 720 during block stun and/or before (when maki has to block)?
N iori vs quick recover goove:
In training mode, i had a hard time punishing quick recover after rekkas. maybe this was because i wasnt comboing in to them, but i would try and run up and c.rh it and it was way too late. I guess what im asking is, what are the different ways to punish quick recovery with n iori after rekkas?
LvL1 qcf,hcb+p super.
In corner:
st. fierce, fierce rekkas
meh, ioriās lvl 1 sucks and i dont have much trouble punishing quickrecovery in the corner, any other midscreen stuff?
Nope, besides lvl3 super.
I tried doing a quick run cancelled into more rekkas. But that doesnāt work.
Youāre better off doing jab dp then go into a quick run cancelled into rekkas.(midscreen)
Campbell, Maj, or NYC Art answer please.
This is a little general, but how often do successful players take risks? For example, you see that your opponent has built up a level 2 super. How often would you decide to hit him with a meaty attack or a low short combo after knocking him down? If thereās usually a better way to make a smart gamble, Iād like to learn some tricks and tactics too.
In 3S, I play unbelievably conservative for example. I learned the hard way from playing so many pad-using fanboys that Iām going to eat reversal wake-up super every time I try to hit them as they get up. What are the general rules for taking risks in CvS2 then? Not just meaty attacks but also jumping in, sticking out a major move, etcā¦
Buk answered this for me before, but Glory Linās (aka The Chinese Connectionās) question is about handling throws. What are the pros and cons of the different defenses you can use?
-tech
-combo
-dp/super
-jump away (Vega and Blanka scrubās favorite)
I want to know the basics for discouraging opponents from using random low jumps to get in on me. Most notably the hard to react to or difficult angle low jumps like Kyo, Iori, Rock, or Blankaās.
All footwork? Sticking out moves randomly isnāt something I want to get into the habit of. Sagat preemptive far s.HP takes low jumpers right out of the air, but every time I whiff that move Iām leaving myself open to Rock d.HK for example.
Thanks for posting that for me kang. Thatās definitely something I want to know because at times I end up getting thrown alot by players that arenāt even that good. I am reluctant to mash on jab/short and sometimes I jump straight up but get hit when trying to avoid throws.
hopefully someone can answer this if not buktooth.
iām looking at the frame data and iām trying to figure out how many frames is vegaās whiffed jab roll attack. is it 52 frames(total added up of that yellow/red frame data bar) or is it 22 frames(the 7~22 in the bottom right corner)?
i know i could jsut go to training mode and estimate the time since 52 almost equal a second and 22 is less than half a second. but i wanna make sure on this so i know how cheap vegaās jab ball is 
kcxj: Iām still staying away from strategy questions, but wouldnāt that be the sort of thing you could easily count while watching a set of Watson videos from a tournament? I bet you could come up with all sorts of crazy statistics like ārisks vs lifebarā and ārisks vs tournament round (finals, semi, etc)ā or even ārisks vs drama/grudge match levelā if you had a big enough set of matches.
The total duration of a move is always the sum of all the little red (active frames) and yellow bars (startup/inbetween/recovery frames). So the total is 52 frames. Iāve never even noticed that 7~22 thing at the bottom, but my guess would be thatās the frame span where Vega is airborne. The LP version has one bit where heās airborne, the MP version has two bits and the HP version has three, which seems reasonable.
I hate the way Watson plays. Iām pretty sure he doesnāt practice or care about CvS2 anymore since heās old guy anyway. Iāll let the crazy forum fools here come up with risk/reward/whatever theories. I want to know what wins matches when it matters. What risks to take depends on your opponent of course. If there are any good tips for reading your opponent and deciding how agressive or conversative to be running your offense, I would love to know though. Iāll share whatever I have if people are interested too.
Iām going to be an ass and generalize by saying that all American 3S players mash on throw and do wake-up super as soon as they get their meter for example, so itās always a better bet to take few risks in that game. It hurts bad whenever you lose a gamble in 3S, as opposed to CvS2 where ratio differences and recoverying life can cover up your unlucky guess. Also, attacking even when the other guy might rub super you is more important in CvS2 because CvS2 is much more of a momentum game than 3S is I think. So donāt be afraid to take risks? Does that sound about right for high level play?
3s is all momentum kangā¦you need to read your opponent better. scrub ken? walk up c.short whiff, block. 3s is all about reading your opponent, then making them scared to do guesswork.
Watson was just an example. Youāre welcome to find your own hero. I was just suggesting an objective empirical way to get the data you want. Anyway iām sure Buk will be along shortly to answer your question in his trademark ghettofabulous mid-tier high-level style.
I mean, it seems like a good question to ask and iām sure Buk will have an informative answer for you. But it seems to me that the question of āriskā is one of those things you have to answer for yourself on the path to developing your own playstyle.
errā¦ listing everything would take way too long. kyo doesnt have anything particularly tricky after his kick throw, just a really solid and scary 50/50 mix up between counter hit and throw. thereās little things you can do to spice up the mix-up, like whiffing a low short at the very last second before throwing them, overhead d+fierce on big characters, and a ton of different tricks for landing the counter hit, but theyre all pretty basic stuff
vegaās the new fad character in japan right now. also, bas has been looking for a 3rd character for a long time now; heās messed with hibiki and honda for brief periods also, but apparently hes not happy with either of them. according to some recent reports in japan, basā vega could very well be the best vega in the world. yes, better than even that guyās. his vega was pretty wack at ts5 though, but he had just picked him up like a week before that
vega does beat chun. n-chun fares a lot better, but at least with c-chun once you have meter you can win the match on one clean hit.
to land that hit, it depends on how the vega player plays:
if the vega player is the walk back and punish whiffs type, walk him to the corner. a lot of walking up and blocking gets the job done. once youāve walked him backwards a good distance, youāll get into an uncomfortable range for vega. vega will probably throw out some random panic move to try to keep you out. the safest thing to do is to walk up and block and feel out the vega players tendencies; if the vega player doesnt press a button until you do first, walk him all the way to the corner. if the vega player is flinching when you get into a certain range, pre-emptively counter hit it with low jab, then link standing strong into super (easy on counter hit, and low strong probably wont reach at the range youre at).
if the vega player is the type that throws out a million long ranged moves to just zone you to death, the strategy is pretty similar: get a poke to whiff, and instead of trying to directly punish it, walk in. since the vega player is the zoning type, theyll likely hit another move the instant the first one whiffs. counter hit low jab into combo like above. if the player is the type to freeze up and block after whiffing a poke, just walk up more. he will either flinch once you get close enough (like in the example above), or he will continue blocking. if the latter happens, either throw, or start pressuring with low jabs (to try to get a counter hit) if you really need to land the super
youāll probably guess the vega playerās reaction wrong a good number of times, and a few of the times you guess right wont directly result in damage (walking in farther, getting them to the corner), but all it takes is for the vega to flinch once at the wrong time and you basically win the match. at the same time, vegaās pokes arent doing much damage to you. the important thing is to not get frustrated
iām not a shoto player, so i dunno really. i know ryu beats up morrigan, but so does everybody else so that doesnt really count. way back in the day, n-ryu rushdown was really hard for chun to deal with. dunno if thatās still the case or not. i would say that ryu does well against characters that depend on being close AND cant deal with runaway.
i havent tested it fully yet, but my assumption is that if the CCer times their move correctly, you shouldnt be able to KKK hop out of it or anything like that. iāll test it sometime later this week
matches yes. i get dan way more often on random select than the laws of probability would allow, and i do win a fair amount with him. tourneys probably not, since to use dan at his full potential it requires some really good footsies and crazy good execution, and i dont think anybody with those skill sets are willing to invest the time in dan. if we were in some ideal world where ā¦ tokido used dan, then yes i could see him winning a tourney with a-dan.
see that chun advice up there? thatās essentially what you need to be doing with kyo. kyo doesnt have the walking speed (and standing strong into super), but he basically operates off of people being afraid of counter hit low short. kyoās low short isnt going to counter hit many things at long range either, so you have to be a bit more creative in finding ways to get into point blank range
i dont think anybody can roll/counter roll between two sagat fierces safely. itās best to just block them, really. if thatās not an option, AC or RC shoulder.
if sagat is whiffing standing fierces, sweep him, not sleeves. also, you should make him never want to randomly uppercut after whiffing pokes by punishing him really hard. the risk/reward ratio IS in your favor. by a lot. random dps are hardly ever good on risk/reward
post-AC, you get a free mix up on your opponent. if you want to be safe, you can just do some long block string which will allow your guard bar to regenerate a lot of what youāve lost.
against sagat low jumps, pre-emptive standing strongs are really good. you should be throwing out a ton of those anyway; they beat most of his ground moves and effectively discourage him from jumping. barring pre-emptive strongs, rc shoulder works perfect, and if youāre fast, standing roundhouse works well too
lastly, i dunno. roundhouse and low fierce seem to work just fine as anti airs for me
throws after knockdowns work if theyre afraid of eating a counter hit move
your maki questions have all been answered in the maki threads. my personal gameplan with maki is to run around and build meter, then look for ways to land supers
like i said before, its just a fad. everybody is trying out vega right now and seeing what they like/donāt like about him. a lot of these people will later drop him and go back to sakura or whoever, and some people will really dig vegas style and stick with him
doing a 720 will take precedence over any other special move. if youāre getting a normal special move then your 720 input is messed up somewhere
you can start inputting the 720 motion any time, but the game only stores your motion for about a fifth of a second or so. you also have to input the entire 720 in about a second; slow circles dont work
and yes, like i said, you can input 720s at any time. this includes during block/hit stun
run up low rh works on pretty much every character ive tried it on. itās ridiculously hard on a few rare characters, but it still works. f+strong only works on a few characters, so just experiment.
oh, and i guess this would be a good time to say that different charactersā techrolls cover different distances. for example, sagatās hardly goes anywhere, while geeseās goes really far
maybe thats why, i was able to sweep my friend (n-vice) but in training mode i was trying it on a-ryu.
Do any of you know any good tricks with C-Sagat after hitting your opponent with a Level 2 Tiger Genocide? By tricks I mean, things to do after the super. I also remember seeing John Choi do some crazy cross-up trickery after doing a Tiger Genocide. Anyone ever seen that?
Uhm I think that the standard is a fierce Tiger Uppercut or Tiger. As far as trickery, if I mess up, donāt hit confirm, or get just defended then after the block I quickly follow up with a fierce Tiger Uppercut. This is so that when the opponent is waiting and ready to punish you can beat them to it. So far itās worked for me about 50% of the time. Especially if I go āthroughā them and end up on the other side. Thatās all the scrubby tactics that I have to offer.
hes talking about genocide fellas, not tiger raid.
ā¦ok a lot of involved questions here:
there is no concrete rule for when or when not to take risks. it also differs from player to player depending on their playstyle. for me, it also varies depending on who iām using/where theyāre at in my lineup. then of course, thereās the factor of what your opponentās tendencies are, and how much you think youāve conditioned them into reacting in a certain way. most importantly of all, assess the risk/reward ratio of the situation youāre in, as well as the probable success rate of what youāre gonna try.
for example, i knock down sagat in the corner. i know my opponent is a little wake up super-happy. what supers do sagat players wake up with? low tiger or hotfoot. so, i walk up menacingly to sagat, then at the last second before he gets up i jump at him. a number of things can happen:
-he does wakeup low tiger super, as expected. not only do i get a big fat jump in combo + momentum on him, he wastes his super.
-he does wakeup hotfoot, which unless i have a really fast super (rock), or a huge cross up (iori), i canāt punish it. he still wastes his super.
-he tries to tech a throw. his fierce may or may not hit me depending on when i jumped and with which character, but if it misses i get a full jump in combo. if not i just get fierced.
-he does wakeup dp, which will probably only get the last two hits
-he waits, crouches, and does a deep dp. not likely to happen unless youāre really predictable, but if it does happen you just eat a dp.
-he waits, crouches, and does a deep high tiger super, even less likely to happen, but if it does happen it sucks
-he blocks. i get a free mix up.
so ummā¦ yea. those are the kinda thought processes that go through my head when i attack people. risk/reward and success rate % are the main determining factors, with educated guesses on how i think my opponent is gonna react coming second.
on a related note, i dont ever do meaty moves unless i can combo off of them 100% of the time, or unless thereās some crazy super-deadly set up afterwards. if you cant combo off of a meaty consistently, then the reward part of your risk/reward ratio is automatically gonna be really shitty.
defending against throws:
teching:
pros: often the safest thing to do. can also be option-selected (block until your un-throwable window is up, then tech), throws your opponent if they dont do anything, counters mixups that involve RCs
cons: doesnt really counter anything (teching a throw is a completely neutral situation), smart attackers can counter option select techs in many ways for huge damage, option-select throwing works better for attackers than defenders
combo (mashing something):
pros: most direct way to counter somebody trying to throw you; if your timing is right, low shorts will ALWAYS beat a throw attempt. can also lead to big damage (combo from the low short) and a big shift in momentum
cons: you guess wrong, you eat a big fat counter hit combo. also loses to RCs
dp/super:
pros: beats both the throw and the counter-hit aspect of a mix-up. if the super is safe, then its basically just paying meter to get out of the situation safely (with the added chance of landing the super). also loses to RCs (unless its a lv3)
cons: horrible risk/reward ratio on the DP or unsafe super. losing all your meter on a wrong guess is a potential round-ender
jump:
pros: almost none
cons: loses to almost every aspect of the mix up except the throw. even if you manage to get off the ground, chances are youāll still get hit by a close fierce, or the opponent will recover in time to just DP you
the only way youāre gonna discourage people from low jumping at you is to prove to them that youāre gonna stop them. with sagat, the best advice would be to practice being able to DP them. if youāre slow (like me), you might have to pump motions in anticipation, but it still gets the job done. slightly less effective, but easier and safer to do is simply jumping up and down. if they low jump at you youāll normally be able to kick them out since you have the height advantage. however, they might get tricky and do something like rockās low jump mk or something like thatā¦ so yea, practice DPing those low jumps.
if youāre looking for some foolproof method of stopping peopleās offense, then i dont have an answer for you. pretty much every strategy in the game has a counter. despite what people might have you believe, turtling is NOT easy in this game at high levels.
He does that one mixup, where once you hit him in the air cancel the L2 into tiger knee, then hit with a tiger knee, then cross over with a tiger knee.I think this is the mixup your thinking of(it may not work)
I do mp tigger uppercut, at the last moment you can, take one step forward once you land then mk or lk tiger knee which crosses up.
I havnāt playd Sagat in a while so these can be completely wrong.