Are RJ45-based PCBs adjustable?

[tripletopper]

I was considering a Jasencustom X Brook Retro Adapter, as that is currently being made and is new, but may consider a PS360 or a MC Cthulhu if I can find one on Ebay.

I noticed the SNES "“default” arrangement is the “pad default”:

Y X L
B A R

I would prefer a “fight stick” layout for 2 reasons. Here’s the a layout I want:

L X R
Y B A

The first reason why I prefer this is because Super Mario World, Mega Man X, Super Ghouls N Ghosts, Contra IV, and Castlevania IV would be better with a fight stick with that arrangement, and that’s just off the top of my head. With the pad arrangement, 2 things go wrong, one is stacking the jump and fire button vertically, which is painful to play. And making it doubly painful is the rapid fire button gets move to the middle finger, not the index, so the run in Mario and the fire in everything else gets moved to the middle. I could go down the list of games I got and predict at least half the games will be similarly effected.

he secodn reason is I bought a Raphnet SNES-> NES converter. It is a basic pin-swap adapter which travels in light speed time, so te ping time, assuming it’s 3 cm in length, is 100 picoseconds, or if it’s 30 cm in length, one nanosecond, less than one pixel’s draw time on a CRT TV. The only way it can be made with “zero” ping time is if NES B = SNES Y and NES A = SNES B.

That does two tings, it makes it good for pad games when you’re used t flex thumbing, and it works wth Ascii and Capcom Fight sticks, which use the second layout standard I mentioned, when converting those sticks to work with a real NES. It puts the fire at your index finger and places them sde-by-side, not stacking them vertically and not putting the rapid fire on middle finger.

I assume there is computerized components within all 3 Fight Stick PCBs. I assume it encodes it to think like a native controller. IS it safe to assume the programming can be changed? If so, does that mean buttons can be remapped? If so, do I plug in the USB cable and active a “debug” mode where I can define the SNES buttons to be like the Ascii formation.

If all you’re using it for is Street Fighter, then I understand the arrangement. But I belive, despite majority public opinion, on a website named after a dragon punch and has in its logo the joystick combination to activte such a dragon punch, I predict enough people would want to use their SNES fight stick for more than just fight stick where, they’ll put up with the small detail of setting their options menu to Street Fighter Stick mode in orderto do less drastic measures to make Super Mario World, Super Ghouls N Ghosts, Mega Man X, Contra IV, and Castlevania IV work less with their joysticks.

For example, most games follow with the YBA or if they don’t, let you customize at the options menu. But at least 3 of these games I know of don’t have a button swap feature. (None on Super Mario and Mega Man, Gholus N Ghosts let you use MK as fire and HK as jump for your buttons, some might complain about that. Castlevania had joystick options, not sure about Contra.) If Street Fighter is the gold standard, then on the SNES, you have an Easy Set for a Capcom joystick for YBA , but the default is the way it currently is, BAR. If there is a Default Fight Stick standard Nintendo accepts, it’s the YBA standard. The Japanese Nintendo-made Fight stick has it, (Not the US SNES Super Advantage though.) Ascii has it, Capcom has it. (Of course on Emulators, on Wii, Wii U, it uses the BAR standard.) Most SNES games are designed, when played with a fight stick, to be played better with a YBA standard

Is there already a custom button swapping by system built into any of the 3 RJ45 Fight PCBs? If so, do I plug my stick into the USB port of my Macintosh, and enter a “debug mode”?

If not, can that be added? I think Super NES would be one of the two most controversial ones. The other one would be Playstation 1/2, with 2 alternate fight stick arrangements, depending on Ascii or Nuby/Capcom. it would some in handy for PS1/2 too.

If it isn’t already a feature, I think I made a decent case for it. Since Jasencustoms is the only one actively making it, a suggesiton there? If it’s already there, how do I use it?

[tripletopper]

If you think the SNES and PS1/2 is controversial, look at the Xbox Prime (since Microsoft insists the third Xbox is called the One, we have to come up with non-confusing name. If you don’t speciify, peolpe would say “Which Xbox?”. At least it’s logical to call the first Playstation “The PS1”)

First the Nuby/capcom layout, which is what I assume the RJ45 follows:

Then there’s a different standard that’s “officially licensed” by Microsoft:

Then you got the first party standard (oops standards, they changed the layout radically):

FInally what standard does the RJ45 device use?:

This does not make sense with ANY of the 4 controllers shown.

Does it seem like the choices are arbitrary, especially with the Xbox Prime?

SNES I can see why it was made that way, and I can see the conflict in the PS1/2.

I’m just thinking, is there enough power in the PCB to re-map the discrete inputs into the different outputs in selectable options? IS there some sort of perfromance cost to making the buttons switchable?

Finaly, what’s with the PS3-> Neo Geo adapter not using the bottom row of X, O, R2, L2, as A, B, C, D? Or L2,X,O,R2 for Ascii sticks? There are more than 3 “right” options. I don’t know what the other 2 options are for.

[tripletopper]

So in a nutshell, are the MC Cthuhlu, the Akishop PS360+ and Jasencustoms Brook Retro board adjustable by plugging in in a USB?

The above cases show why tis is important. The Original Xbox, Playstation 1/2, and SNES are 3 systems which should have an adjustement.

I’d like to program the baseline once, like YBA on SNES, and any adjustments I’d make beyond that are at the level of the telephone operator switchboard for right handed games that don’t map index-to-index.

[tripletopper]

It’s been 12 days since I last mentioned it, but no bites from anyone but me. I bought the USB RJ45 for the PC / Mac / (and maybe PS3) could be used t interface with the chip and redefine the default standards.

If the ridiculousness of Xbox Prime layout is not enough reason to adjust it, I don’t know what it. In the Capcom Fight stick, the licensed fight stick, and the Duke pad, having the HP as Black and 3P as White on separate rows and be vertical neighbors as opposed to horizontal ones makes no sense. Just look at the visual evidence.

If it doesn’t work well for these three standards, then the only thing that makes one picogram of sense is the RJ-045 layout is based off the Controller S layout. I don’t see it, butt here is no other logical choice.

Yes I know that if changing the chip mapping by the system were to be allowed, it should be a semi-permanent fix, not one I’d do every day, and I will use RCA adapters for everyday changes. But I don’t know whether the @Toodles board or the Aki Shop board was the original, but if all the converisions are done by a microchip, then it should be programmable with less than 1 ms delay in computation time. If you get the USB cable, you can download a web file into the USB device based on what you select as one function.

Of course you need the USB cable to make the changes, but that should be no problem. They only cost $10-15. If you don’t have a computer, maybe a more expensive programming device can be added, to accommodate people with no computers, but funnels traffic into the USB connector.

I would have bought a Tototek, but Tomy promised custom one-time remapping in 2012, and then refunded me twice when I wrote him. That’s what got me looking into RJ-45 adapters. I know there’s internal brains in there.

At least Raphnet thought ahead and provides N64 remapping code for their GameCube-> N64 adapter on their website. it’s kind of a pain, especially when you can’t see the lights on the device while looking at the website for the button code. beeps would have been nice to confirm whether a button was pressed or not. I can hear the dreamcast VMU beep. it doesn’t have to be any louder than that. So I don’t know whether I misprogrammed or whether going from PS2 to Game Cube, and then Game Cube to N64 causes double-translation problems.

If someone wants a website independent way to program it (and you only should have to do this once per console) Hold Start and Select (Start and Mode on Genesis) either for 5 seconds, or when first powered on to enter programming mode, and then type the keys in a certain order based the button functions. All you have to do is publish the button order, and voila instant reprograming, even without a USB cable.

If most fight games have remappable button, then should the priority be given to games that don’t have remappable buttons, like on the SNES Contra 4 and Super Mario World?

If you’re going to do that, might as well have joystick reprogramming for “flight stick” mode (invert Y) and right handed stick mode (invert X and Y) and Track N Field Mode with Left and Right being button presses, not a joystick move.

Finally if we’re going back to Atari 5200 days, a chip-imposed toggleable 4/8 way lock would be nice, if these RJ-45 devices already contains SOCD scrubbers: Or an even more universal 5200 solution, a diagonal that has a radius of 100% not 141% by “rounding the square gate”. The software simulates a 4-way stick in cerain games with the standard analog stick by making the actuation threshold minimum 80%, because if it’s 80% in one axis, it’s 60% or less in the other. And a perfect 45 degree diagonal is 70.7% in both axes, below the 4-way threshold. Of course you have a lot of dead zone, but hopefully a physical digital stick can fix that.

[wikidone0321]

At a point you may as well make a “project box stick”
Why I think this.

1. You can wire them to any input in anyway you want to
2. It makes for a much easier “adapter type” setup to where you don’t have a thousand different pcbs in one arcade stick which becomes a nightmare.
3. It cuts out adapters which can cause lag
4. You would have to padhack a couple controllers for systems not supported on multi boards (ex. Genesis, N64) but most are contained in multi console pcbs (ex. Jasen x Brook Retro UFB)
5. For certain consoles that you want to have analog functionality it’s a lot easier to have that one said board in a project box that you can switch said inputs with a switch on the box instead of it being on the stick its self which is just one more button that you can press then throw your game off in the middle of a match.
6. You can add with time making it “future proof”, meaning a when a new console comes out, you get a pad hack done for a new console then you’re all good.
7. You can take it a console at a time, meaning you can get playing sooner on project boxes you do have, while your other project boxes are in progress.
8. Unfortunately the perfect stick doesn’t exist with every bell a whistle, being a musician the term “Never being 100% happy with your gear” is always there, but personally I think with a project box stick you can get most of what you want.
   You’ve been posting for a while now and I’m not sure if you ever get exactly what you are looking for. Best thing to do is take a project a step at a time then worrying about a bunch of things all at once. Fix your sight on small goals and you will succeed. Having one stick to do it all has been a dream of mine too, just not to the scope of reconfiguring buttons, and analog inputs.

[tripletopper]

Answering your bullet points:

2. I’m planning to put many PCBs in one stick, but attach them one at a time externally. I’m not into dealing with weird Y-ings.

3. I understand the less you adapt, the less lag, and at most one adapter is tolerated without risking weird effects.

4. The RJ45 would have the analog stick actuated digitally. I’m not using a true analog control. It’s mainly for games like the Atari 5200 (even though I know there’s currently no way to do it now) and games like Wii Metal Slug Anthology, where the game is digital, but strangely uses analog only.

5. It’s only for digital games. I’m not trying to play Analog games which require precise angles or radiuses. Also, it’s a tool for most things, not everything. SNES games where the concept of Shoulder Buttons are important, like F Zero and Super Mario Kart, will be played with a pad, not a stick.

I don’t know what a “Project stick box” is, but if it’s swappable “pad-hacked PCBs” with an easy single multi-connector attached externally, that’s exactly what I was doing, using a DB25 to connect the RJ45 system and the other systems not covered separately.

I was just complaining about the weird “default arrangements”. I’m not looking to change the RJ45 reprogramming over and over, I’m looking to change the default ONCE so that most games can work right without much swapping.

I’m planning on using a “manual telephone operator switchboard” to redefine the buttons in rare instances on games with no button remapping in the options. I just prefer not to use it all the time.

I notice the YBA SNES arrangement works for more games than the BAR arrangement for most non-fighting games. I bought my RJ-45 SNES before I saw the arrangement. I was just seeing if there was a way to permanently adjust the MC Cthulhu for SNES without affecting the PS2 settings, and other systems. The main reason why I ask is so I can decide whether to use the computer to adjust the SNES mode, or sell an SNES RJ-45 and use to money to pad hack the SNES the way I want.

And I understand the majority of clientele for the RJ-45 want to play with a joystick for fighting games. I understand the SNES arrangement. I don’t agree with it, but understand it.

What I don’t understand is the Xbox Prime arrangement for the RJ-45, at least the Brook X Jasen arrangement.

Is the Toodles and AkiShop arrangement the same as the Brook x Jasen? If not, may I have the Xbox Prime arrangement for the Toodles and AkiShop. if it’s the same, may I have what appears to be the logic for the arangement chosen? If you look on my above pictures in this post, I just don’t see the logic in the Xbox Prime arrangement. Can someone explain it to me?

[tripletopper]

Another problem I noticed is that the RJ-45 hookups are based on the common button is for Quick, Middle, Heavy, and Consumable(3x) Punches and Kicks. If the PS2, the PS3 USB, Saturn, and Dreamcast all work right, but the original Xbox and SNES are wrong, that means I have to readjust the rRJ-45 device. Every time I wantto go from one system to another, I have to rewire the MC Cthulhu.

THe Dreamcast and Sauturn have no controversies. Saturn has a 6 button layout and an L/R consumable. Dreamcast has only 6 buttons, and there seems to be standard used that work for Capcom games, and may work just as well for other games. (Why doesn’t the Dreamcast work with the digital actuation of the analog stick, and substitute L and R (and digitize them) for C and Z.

PCs usually have programable buttons, and I don’t know if the Cthulhu works o te PS3 or not, but if it does, I assume it uses a reasonable 8 button standard, similiar to the PS2.

PS2 starts the controversy. Old PS1 joysticks use

L1 ^ R1
L2 X O R2

Putting the lefts left of center and rights right of center. But the Street FIghter 2 stick uses:

^ R1 L1
X O R2 L2

Since fighting games are over 50% of the games desired to be played with a fight stick, that was chosen as the RJ-45 Standard. I know Parappa the Rapper would be backwards the rights to the left of the lefts. And I know the Ps1 are a little miserly when it come to button choice, with some allowing limited freedom and others no freedom. I agree with that, but sympathize with those who want those PS1 standard.

SNES is a lttle more controveroisal. The default standard is what works well with the pad remapped to a fght stick, hence:

Y X L
B A R

But FIghting games are a smaller percentage of the games desired to eb played with a fight stick, due to the fact it’s natually a digital contoller.

Sper Mario World might be better with this setup:

L X R
Y B A

This is the was the Ascii Stick is arranged, and the way the Japanese Super Advantage is laid out. This works well for games where Y and B are your main 2 buttons. They were designed on a pad to be thumb-hinged. I found it painful on a pad because I put the controller on the floor, and use my left and right index and middle fngers for most buttons, whihc means I have to extend my index finger and curl my middle to reach Y and B as 2 independent buttons. The Genesis layout was WAY more comfortable for me.

The US Super Advantage was more designed for Smash TV, keeping the NSEW nature of the buttons.

I can understand the choice of layout rationally: the original RJ-45 Maker, either @Toodles or Akishop, wanted to cater to Street Fighter fans first. I don’t agree with it, but I understand and respect it. I think enough people agree with it enough where the YBA standard might be a highly popular second “first choice” and a first “second choice”. Enough so that there could be 2 standards where you hold down the desired Y button for your desired standard. either QK for BAR standard, or QP for YBA standard. Any other standard is obscure enough where if you really want, you’d use a telephone operator switchboard device.

But Xbox Prime is the weirdest animal of the bunch. Read post number 2 in this forum and these pictures will speak to the schizohrenia of Xbox fight stick mapping.

If there is this much variance between default mappings on fight sticks, and the Brook X Jasen standard follows none of them, (and I assume the @Toodles standard and/or the AkiShop standard follows this setup too.) maybe a way to define a default standard that permanently saved would be nice, just hook up to a PC and download a file which can be transferred via USB to the PCB in the RJ-45 chip. That way, no one would have to dismantle their RJ45 stick just to change systems, or make more extraordinary, fiddlefart means be more common and annoying. Everyone would have their set up, and it might be easy to change with less work.

Can anyone explain the logic behind the Brook x Jasen Xbox Prime default setup? I’d like to make sense of it. Currently, it makes NO SENSE. Someone enlighten me if they can. If there is a logic I’m not seeing, show it to me.

[wikidone0321]

Snes RJ45? Are you talking about a MC Cthulhu’s RJ45 SNES Output, or some different board? If it’s a different board just wire inputs for that board for YBA layout and leave it as that and you can leave the MC Cthulhu’s layout alone for fighting games. I think there is a way to reprogram MC Cthulhu’s buttons I’m not 100% and I’ll look into it.

P.S. It isn’t. You’ll have to do it in game menu on games that support it with the MC Cthulhu.

I didn’t say anything knocking down you wanting to play everything you want with your stick.

What is Xbox Prime? The Original Xbox? I’m pretty sure the arrangements are the same in between all 3 of those boards. I think RJ45 cords made for MC Cthulhu will work on both PS360+ and Brook x Jasen boards. The layout is the same because they are setup with fighting games in mind.

The Dreamcast has a thing to were some games have to be Arcade Stick Compatible for it to go through. The only way to get past the it is padhack.

Yes the MC Cthulhu is natively a PS3 board. There was an original Cthulhu which was PC/PS3 only.

My Madcatz SE for PS3 is setup like your SF2 stick. Also the MC Cthulhu Calls for this setup. You could pad hack a ps1 pad to fix those issues.

This is the basic idea behind the “project box stick” idea, which sounds like what you are doing.

[wikidone0321]

I have no idea why the OG Xbox is setup that way. In a couple manuals it looks like the white is just an light punch and black is extra light kick. Couple games use the triggers as taunts while MVC 2 uses it as a tag opponent in. MAYBE they mislabeled? Or they assume it’s going to be used for fighting games that more often than not have configurable button mapping in game menu. I’m not a 100%. The only thing I can think yet again is another pad hack or go with MC Cthulhu (which I have no clue what the layout is for the OG Xbox is for the MCC)

[tripletopper]

Project stick box is exactly what I’m doing. I have even 2 different DB25 ends, one for Left hand stick right buttons, and one for right hand stick left buttons, mapped index-to-index, with an optional middle adapter while they’re still discrete to remap for unusual arrangements for games like Activiisoin Decathon, Tutankham, Side Arms and Pac-Land, where the buttons have more of a concept of “left and right” main “primary and secondary”

If I were to buy 2 toodles boxes, I could designate one as my SNES, but isn’t the whole point of a toodles or similar PCB is to reuse as many things as possible? I just want to see if ti’s possible to change e default. if it is, I’ll do that and make it YBA. If not, I might as well sell my SNES adapter and use the money to hire a pad-hacking of an SNES stick.

In a couple manuals it looks like the white is just an light punch and black is extra light kick.

If you look at the Duke, the Xbox authorized fight stick aka Rqadica Reflex, and the Street fighter stick, they look similar enough where White is HP and Black is HK. L and R are the aux buttons for tags, 3P. 3K, taunt, etc. and are to the right of the heavies on the Duke and Street Fighter 15 stick, and to the left of the lights on the Radica Reflex stick. Slight differences but I see the logic. Duke and SF15 make perfect sense, and the Reflex might make sense in some other non-fighting games.

But I do not understand the logic in the Controller S. And if the Brook X Jasen didn’t use the Controller S as the basis for mapping, I don’t understand the separate logic of that mapping either. @wikidone0321 , it looks like you don’t understaad the logic of the Brook X jasen mapping OR the Controller S mapping, either.

[wikidone0321]

The configuration difference between the Duke and the S types were hand size as for the layout from above to below idk. Pad players generally dont care too much about layout because most of the times the trigger and thumb combinations are easier to achieve. Put as soon as it hits arcade sticks it’s a world of difference as you know.

In my instance I never really played fighting games on the xbox. I usually got all the fighters that I did on ps2 because of backward compatibility with the ps1 games. Most of Xbox exclusives are also on PC as well or more arcade perfect ports elsewhere (such as MVC 2 on the Dreamcast being superior). But JSRF keeps drawing me back to it and the mods that you can do it make it a powerhouse still to be reckoned with.

I also had a pair of wireless xbox controllers (pelican I think) that had black white on the face but also white as a left bumper and black as a right bumper and that’s how I played through most of everything on there so I didnt worry much about it.

P.S. it was a Pelican Spirit Wireless controller.

[tripletopper]

Sorry for the bump, but it looks like I’ve got a fairly costly soluion, having someone build discrete button remappers. I didn’t want to unscrew and re-screw the Cthulhu constantly when I play Xbox Prime or SNES games.

Don’t you find it funny that Capcom and Ascii used the YBA layout in their sticks. Search Ascii SNES jhoystick and Capcom SNES joystick, and you’ll see a kick row of YBA. I can think of 2 reasons why YBA and not BAR was chosen by both Capcom and Ascii.

The first was there was an easy way to set it t the Capcom/Ascii standard. Just hit one button and it goes there.

The second is deeper. They probably factored in other games, especially games with no button remapping options,m and found YBA was a better option in more games and the more popular games with no button remapping than BAR.

Yes Capcom was not so egotistical that they thought their stick was a Street Fighter Stick and nothing else. They actually thought they could sell it to non-SF2 fans it it worked well with more than just THEIR one little game.

You better offer something damn special if you design a controller for one game. It better be something special like Samba De Amigo’s Maracas, which was special until the Wiimote came out. Nintendo took Sega’s Maracas, and made it more general purpose. They thought of lots of ways to play with motion controllers than would make for good games.

Only choice in Motion games before the Wii

Before the Wiimote, your only choice for motion games was the system that Sean Hannity endorsed on his radio show, the Xavix. Literally Sean Hannity was where I gained my fIrst awareness of the Xavix. Ever since the Wii came out, Sean stopped advertising the Xavix, because these right-wing talk show hosts usually have a policy of lending their own likeness and voice to things they’d personally endorse. They’re only hired mouths if they agree with the claims or product., And my guess is he said he’d like to stop advertising the Xavix, because the Wii does all the things the Xavix does, but the control is more universal, which means not having to spend $200 on a separate game/controller combo UNIQUE to one gamer, and has better graphics, and has some more traditional games that are family friendly too as a bonus. Sean Hannity may be a shill, but he’s an honest shill. Nintendo didn’t need Hannity, (and might have some negative sales if they partnered due to both popularity to love as well as popularity to hate) And Xavix needed Hannity’s mouth more than Hannity needed Xavix’s money.

But back to original point, if you’re going to offer something, you’ll limit yourself if it’s just sold as a “Street Fighter Stick”, when it can also be sold without any design changes as a Super Mario Stick, a Mega Man Stick, and pretty most every game in the SNES library Stick.

I think when they defined the SENS mapping, they didn’t look at Capcom’s wisdom and ask, “Why did Capcom use YBA?”. they instead said what the one most desirable mapping for the one game people will buy this stick for, ignoring the fact that it’s a one-option set to make the game YBA, and other games that are strict YBA will feel awkward as a BAR stick.

I know I’m swimming upstream on this one, especially on a website where the website name is a move from one particular, iconic game and the logo is the directions used to activate such a move mixed with letters of the English Alphabet, the first letter of each syllable when phonetically Anglicized. Probably a decent percentage of people here would ATTITUDINALLY (not literally) say “There’s other games besides Street Fighter on the SNES ?!?!”

Just don’t come running to me when I say Super Mario World won’t play right on a fight stick, (All the other examples have some to complete Button swapping, but not Super Mario World.) And Street Fighter acknowledged this by having pad mode and stick mode, and making the stick more friendly with other games.

And don’t get me started on the Xbox Prime. The only “logic” I see in it is if the Xbox Prime controls were mapped to the PS2 controls and if the White and Black Buttons were bumpers, like the Xbox 360. But that’s making the RJ45 well after the Xbox Prime. Baesd on the joystick mapping I shown in post 2, there seems to me no logical reason for Toodles to map it the way he did, other than my theory, which I believe is worthless when playing on a real Xbox Prime.

Can someone point to a different logical reason why the SNES and Xbox Prime mappings on RJ45s are the way they are? Can someone argue why, how, or in what way Toodle’s choices are better than Capcom’s? The SNES I may concede as a simple plug and play for one particular game, arguably the number one reason to buy an SNES joystick, but you’ve got a lot of work to do on the Xbox Prime.

[Darksakul]

Toodles button layout choices are made for mostly fighting and arcade games.
Other games are disregarded as the Toodles boards were intended for Arcade Controllers and aimed towards the Fighting game Community.

Toodles followed this format which is based off Street Fighter on the PlayStation systems (at the time the most popular console for fighters).
P1 P2 P3 PPP
K1 K2 K3 KKK

It works the best for Street Fighter and many other fighters with similar button assignments.
And as Street Fighter was and still is the most popular Fighting game series it made sense to follow the Street Fighter Standard button layout for not just for sticks but with other fighting games.

it would be this way on with Xbox Buttons
X Y RB LB
A B RT LT

Or this way with PlayStation
☐ △ R1 L1
X ◯ R2 L2

With a SNES Game that comes out as
Y X L
A B R

This was taken from a Street Fighter II’ Turbo: Hyper Fighting SNES Manual.

Sega Genesis/Mega Drive games the button arrangement would be
X Y Z
A B C

On a PC Engine/ Turbo Grafix You see this layout
VI V VI
III II I

or
4 5 6
3 2 1

Why does older SNES sticks used a different layout? I don’t know, and I tend to avoid it.
Older SNES sticks used, this was established before Street Fighter II became popular.
L Y R
A B X

Why? I am not sure, but I do know that this was before the Fighting Game movement that was created with Street Fighter II. Please keep in mind the SNES was well established before SF 2 was born.

The Toodles boards try to have the consistent Street Fighter layout across all systems, you don’t have to think which button does P1, as P1 never changes, regardless of what system you used.
You don’t need to stop and think is Low Punch A here, B, X, III or what have you.

Every console, the controls for Street Fighter (and most fighters will remain).
P1 P2 P3 PPP
K1 K2 K3 KKK

The Toodles SNES layout of Y X L, A B R layout still works for non-fighters.
Example Super Mario World hardly uses R and L at all, its used for 2 player games to transfer lives between players. The BA YX buttons stay in the same Square/Diamond arrangement found on SNES game pads and is still considered intuitive for most players.
Link to the Past, the R and L buttons are only used for Zooming in and out of the World map
L and R is not heavily used by SNES games till after Street Fighter II.

[Darksakul]

Mortal Kombat 10 controls with the existing Toodles/Street Fighter Controls.

Front Punch = P1
Back Punch = P2
Front Kick = K1
Back Kick = K2
Throw = P3
Interact/Grab = K3
Switch Stance = PPP
Block = KKK

[FreedomGundam]

Just hit one button and it goes there. (SNES SF2 to LXRYBA)

One thing to point out here, though: by default, even before going to the “Set” option in SF2 on the SNES, the button layout is actually already YXLBAR, as evidenced by the picture that Darksakul posted above.

[tripletopper]

As I said, I conceded that the Toodles was primarily designed for fighters and I admitted I’m swimming upstream, especially on a site called ShoRuyKen.com

I understand the retroactive way of doing the SNES, (by the way you got the SNES fight sticks wrong.) They are:

L X R
Y B A

That does in WAY more handy than the Toodles arrangement iu Super Mario World becuase you hold down run with Y, your index finder, Jump with B, you middle finger, and drill jump/dismount Yoshi with A. All 3 buttons you use most, right in a row, right in the order that stays true to the pad. If you were to use the Tooldes arrangement you’d have:

Y X L
B A R

Imagine how you’d hold your fingers in that arrangement. (on a fight stick with the Tooldes arrangement. The arrangement makes sense on a pad, if one were to use the flex thumb method for Y and B. it was mildly painful for me, because I stretch my index finger o the Y and curl y middle finger on the B using the 2 finger method. Manageable, but not ergonomic.) With the Toodles Fight stick arrangement, your Index finger must be hyper stretched to hit Y, while your middle finger hitting B is anywhere from painful to impossible, depending on how dexterous your fingers are. The only other option is “side stacking” where your index finger is over B or Jump, and your Middle finger is on Run/fireball, and that is backwards to the NES standard lots of SNES players have grown up with. Hence why Jump is called A on the NES and VS game.

The PS1/2/3/4 was an easy call

Xbox 360 was an easy call too, assuming their pad mappings followed the PS3 standard on the 360. When the RJ45s were made, the number one standard was Xbox 360, Not PS3, everywhere except Japan.

Genesis and TG 16 are no brainers.

The Game Cube was the Game Cube and was made specifically designed around Luigi’s Mansion. It’s a mistake, but it survives today, in all its quirkiness, in Game Cube Port adapters and most competitive players insisting on the Game Cube controllers, this despite having the more logical Wii Classic controllers that looks like a PS2/SNES, as well as thee truly retro N64 controllers for SSB64. How did Game Cube, which was designed with exactly one game in mind, Luigi’s Mansion, survive 3 generations later as an alternate new controller, despite the fact it’s the least conventional controller in a bad way (unlike wiimotes which were unconventional in a good way, just not good for the monomaniacal focus of fight games I expect form a a site called shoryuken.com) that I thought made stupid decisions in design, like an A-button central hub design, and not the Nintendo 64 controller, which was more planned out for fighting games with 2 rows of 3 buttons for Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat? Nintendo didn’t have the audacity to shove a proprietary feature that they use well, and not think enough about third parties to offer a trident design for digital fight games. Most third parties did not impose a configuration, they knew it’d be crazy to find one optimized arrangement for the game cube, most games have customizable buttons, unless they are a 2-or-less button games like Mega Man Anniversary, which was backwards on the Game Cube by the way.

The Toodles Xbox Prime arrangement does not make sense, even in the scheme of Street Fighter. The Duke had this arrangement:

X Y White
A B Black
In perfect 2x3 Street Fighter arrangement, with an L and R being 3K and 3P. You couldn’t have dreamt a better controller if you were a Capcom executive. Since the only way you’re going to use an Xbox Prime RJ45 adapter is for Xbox Prime games on the Xbox Prime machine, the logic escapes me why it wasn’t:

X Y White L
A B Black R

What messed THAT up was controller S. TheDuke was made for the American, European and pretty much everywhere outdside of Japan. Yes, Japan were given those special S controllers. And yet despite the fact that Japan is so jingoistic about their games…

How jingoistic is the average Japanese gamer

(outside of Japan, the Genesis outsold the SNES in every way. The Genesis flopped in Japan simply tbecuase they were Sega, and despite having Japaese ownership, has root that trace to American money that just got sold to Japan after the Video Game Crash. So in the Japanese consumer’s mind, Sega, despite being Japanese owned, were gringos. Also aiding that cause was Nintendo micromanaging the world form Japan were Sega gave autonomy to its Brazilian, Eurorpoean, and American Divisions. The during the Saturn, Japan decided to take the reigns of the world, and they shoved everyhting down the toilet where a hungry American public couldn’t save Sega. Heck, Sega of Japan made games for Turbo Grafx 16, not the Genesis, that’s how much a of a loser Sega was in Japan. Also if you look in Japan, Xbox has always been clearance aisle items after one year. They have even a tougher time because they have a 100% American identity. Literally the only Japanese 2 companies to support Xbox Prime were Sega, mainly due to their outside-of-Japan success, because they wanted a system that might take off outside of Japan, and Tecmo, literally the only Japanese company to be exclusively Xbox Prime, because Team Ninja was so impressed. Even though Xbox 360 was the most popular systgem in the world, Japan was Bizarroland where everythign was backwards. They couldn’t get 5% for the 360 in Japan despite it being a worldwide hit, but got 40-45% in a 3 way race elsewhere.)

… their S controller, which I don’t know the benefit of outside of it being smaller, was a worse joypad for fight games. Why did they mess up a great fight pad with a joystick that was only made for a market Micorsoft was fighting an uphill battle to justify an existence in. Now Japan just spread their Xbox misery around the rest of the world.

And @FreedomGundam the reason why they made the default on SNES the pad arrangement was because they assumed more people would own the game and not the special stick, as opposed to both the game AND the special stick. They thought it would be niche. And they thought they could sell more it they made it comply well with previous SNES games, like Super Mario World. The instructions in both the game and the joystick for the SNES version was to go to options and set the fight stick mode.

There was not such adjustmetn on the Genesis. None was needed. Capcom knew the Genesis pad would be the preferred thanks to its 2x3 arrangement. And it worked well backwardsly with 3 button games, (except 5 or less games that glitch and require a 3-button. Ms Pac Man, Forgotten Worlds, and Sega CD Wheel of Fortune are 3 I own that do that.) The only thing Capcom had to do was “throw in a 3 button mode”, but the 6-button pad was highly adopted so I think few people knew about the 3 button mode, and even fewer used it, and were only forced into it until they had enough money to buy a second one. I think Genesis/Mega Drive Street Fighters outsold SNES Street Fighters everywhere except Japan. Sega built their 6 button controller around the Street Fighter standard.

And joysticks were niche on the SNES. And if people had a Genesis and an SNES, which one did they buy Street Fighter for more? Most likely Genesis. Default SG 6-button pads were cheaper than joysticks for either.

[FreedomGundam]

I still find your argument that LXRYBA is “better” for non-fighters to be very subjective.

I find using YXLBAR much better for playing platformers like Mario and MegaMan anyways.
Thumb on B for jump, index on Y for attack, middle on X for secondary attack, alternate use of thumb for A for secondary jump, ring/pinky on L/R for weapon-switch and whatnot. Fingers never leave their spots (except for B and A).

[tripletopper]

@FreedomGundam, I appreciate that you found a way to make it work. As a guy who “two-fingers” a pad and prefers right handed joysticks, I can appreciate finding clever ways to do things.

I guess my personality license plate, as far as joystick configurations are concerned, as well as my religious license plate, is Missouri, the “Show Me” state, even though I’m geographically from Ohio.

But hopefully you can admit that even though you found a way to make BAR work with platformers and other existing SNES games, you can see the reasons why Capcom and Ascii were thinking the way I was when releasing their joysticks YBA as the “stick default”.

Another note about that: the 3D Zero, an SNES-> 3DO joystick adapter with a Daisy Chain 3DO plug from another player, has 2 modes, a stick mode, and a pad mode, as shown by the pictures above a switch.

And what’cha doing using L and R? Mario doesn’t use it in gamplay, (or if it does, I NEVER used it to play a complete game), and on Mega Man, I’m used to the NES “press Start to change weapons” mechanic.

Speaking of which my brother, who didn’t have the instruction booklet when renting Mega Man 1, and even if you did there was no mention of it in the instruction book, got as far as one could go on a mega buster alone back in the day. Then he was stumped, not knowing what to do to advance, not knowing about the alternate weapons, at least one of which is required on the Wiley Stages.

[tripletopper]

@Darksakul the one thing I STILL don’t understnad is the Xbox Prime arrangements. All the other ones make sense from a Street Fighter-centric point of view, and I admitted it on post 1.

The SNES was controversial because Capcom and Ascii used a YBA arrangement over a BAR arrangement on their physical joystick and asked you to select one option to get it in stick mode, mainly to make it easier or older games.

As I said, if Toodles is centered around using the joysticks with Original hardware and default arrangements, why is the Xbox Prime like this:

X-Y-Black-White
A-B-R-------L

when the best Street Fighter friendly default controller, the Duke, as well as the Cacpcom/Nuby SF15, uses;

X Y White L
A B Black R

?

The only way it make sense in an offbeat way was if the White and Black buttons were moved to front bumpers, like the 360. Why was THAT the arrangement? The only way that makes sense is if there was a combined 360/Prime joystick that worked on an Xbox Prime system.

Otherwise, why was the Xbox Prime defined the way it was, especially from a Street FIghter-centric perspective?

Remember, Missouri: Show me!

[FreedomGundam]

I can’t say anything for the choice of layout used on the original Xbox, but the SNES button layout on the MC Cthulhu matches the default SF2 layout. I’m almost certain that this was the driving point: use the default config so that you don’t have to change anything in the game. How “well” that layout works for other games (a subjective perspective anyways) was a secondary thought (if at all).

Brings me to my next question to you: For your personal reasons, the MC Cthulhu’s layout doesn’t work for you (at least for the SNES and Xbox). That’s fine; to each their own.
But the board has no more support, and is no longer getting any new firmware updates; it is what it is, and will not change. Why are you trying so hard to fight this battle when there’s clearly no outcome where things work out for you?