JohnGrimm, no problem, I can take care of formatting. I’m fixing to go back home, so I won’t be online for about an hour. I’ll update the results post next time I get a chance.
Much appreciated, btw.
No problem. Results for SSFIV are the exact same as the 360 results.
Wow. I’m late.
Amp, thank you for your dedication. Last week we contacted Seth Killian about the SOCD issue on Xbox MvC3. Apparently Capcom already knows about it, and we can expect them to correct this. Seth was hoping that it would go under the radar while it’s being fixed, but I guess I inadvertently screwed that up.
I think it would be helpful for everyone to contact Capcom directly to help expedite this fix. This issue is beyond Hit Box in that anyone can rewire their controller to exploit this. I don’t use “dummy block,” but it makes me feel uncomfortable knowing that anyone can spend 5 minutes to rig up their stick with an auto block button (and now apparently with 360 pads). Hit Box is all about creating a competitive alternative to the joystick, not exploits. It discredits what Shawn and I are doing for the community.
If we all use our connections to get this fixed, Xbox 360 MvC3 will become a non-issue. As a community we need to do everything we can to petition its resolve now that SOCD’s are a reality.
Looks like MvC3 results are identical too.
And you said PS3 was immune to this stuff 
I told you man, bad science leads to bad results.
So basically, in the short term,
It needs to be a socd capable pcb and a socd capable game for there to be a problem.
Right now for xbox 360, the ps360, te, and pad are socd capable pcbs.
For ps3, the pad is socd capable. (ps360 and mc cthulhu’s are not) I believe the ps3 te, hrap (all) and chimp/chimp smd are untested.
The only known socd capable games are ssf2 turb hd remix, and MvC3. (both are socd capable on both systems)
Is my summary correct?
We should probably write up a guide for tournament organizers until this gets patched.
All games (the software) are “SOCD-Capable”.
SOCD is just the signal.
It’s how the different games interpret those SOCD’s. So far it’s only HD Remix, Marvel 3, and Marvel 2 we’ve found where SOCD’s cause problems.
Yeah, it’d be great if we could find out if the PS3 TE, the HRAP, and the Chimp PCB’s are capable of SOCD behavior.
The only real determinant is whether the controller PCB is SOCD-Capable.
Thus, we just need to get ahold of Capcom and anyone else developing fighting games (Yo why have I not been contacted about Skullgirls yet?) and make them aware of SOCD’s, and let them know they are an issue that needs to be handled.
By “socd-capable” I mean, the game registers both directions. BBCS and arcana heart 3, when given both direction default to left. (For all practical purposes, if you’re inputting left, you are not inputting right so there is no socd). In the game’s training mode, with input display on, what happens when the game is sent both left and right. in marvel 3, the game registers both left and right. In arcana heart, the game just registers left.
We’re probably just quibbling over terms.
I agree with you that this really should be handled on the software side.
Glad to hear a patch is coming.
If tricks done with a fight-board can also be done on a pad wouldn’t that change this whole issue? Also, don’t just assume only the console stock pads. People are capable of modding pads as well iirc.
Sorry about not making a more detailed post… >.>
Best of luck on your testing!
just out of curiosity, how do the DDR menus prioritize SOCDs? because I know sony requires certain standards before a game is published for PS3 (eg x being submit in US while Circle being submit in japan)
they also might have treatment of SOCDs in there as well, but made an exception for DDR gameplay.
edit: after reading this last page more and about the problems about enforcability of SOCDs… over man games, and “drug testing” over many players…
I think we could test maybe just the top 8? then disqualify them if they have a controller capable of SOCDs…
as for, finding people alternate sticks, or people getting their sticks custom made not knowing about SOCD issues, I say address the issue with the tournament posting, and it’s an automatic DQ if discovered. If they don’t know the rules, then that’s their fault. just like knowing the rules about single/double elimination / random controller disconnects, heck even time for registration and matches, and the “Grace period” before a match is called before you are DQed. If you can be DQed for those things I don’t see why SOCDs are any different…
I’ve updated the compiled list to reflect MvC3 and SSF4 PS3 tests done by JohnGrimm. Much appreciated, bro.
@samaytg1, yo can you run AH3 and BBCS through the complete list of tests on pad, record, and give me results so I can post them up?
In my defense MvC3 is the only game it works on.
PS2 games and DC games in for a loss if SOCD affects them
ps3 pad tests:
ah3: D-PAD has priority over stick when in conflict no socd possible.
P1 Side: Hold forward, press back, unmolested; walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold back, press forward, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold forward, press back, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold back, press forward, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold forward, press back, reaction to being attacked get hit(if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold back, press forward, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold forward, press back, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked(if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold back, press forward, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
Hold Down, Press Up jump (if dpad up, stick down) crouch (if stick up dpad down)
Hold Up, Press Down jump (if dpad up, stick down) crouch (if stick up dpad down)
Attempt to perform a charge move without “releasing” charge direction* (yes, if use stick to charge and dpad to release), it’s hard to tell, this games charge times are so fast, that it gives you the same effect as normal charge buffering. I don’t really think it counts.
1P Side: Attempt to perform an X-Axis charge move while walking forward** fail
2P Side: Attempt to perform an X-Axis charge move while walking forward** fail
bbcs:D-PAD has priority over stick when in conflict no socd possible
P1 Side: Hold forward, press back, unmolested; walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold back, press forward, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold forward, press back, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold back, press forward, unmolested walk forward (if dpad is forward stick is backward) walk backward (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold forward, press back, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P1 Side: Hold back, press forward, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold forward, press back, reaction to being attacked get hit (if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked(if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
P2 Side: Hold back, press forward, reaction to being attacked get hit(if dpad is forward stick is backward) attack blocked (if dpad is backward stick is forward.)
Hold Down, Press Up jump (if dpad up, stick down) crouch (if stick up dpad down)
Hold Up, Press Down jump (if dpad up, stick down) crouch (if stick up dpad down)
Attempt to perform a charge move without “releasing” charge direction* fail( you can get off hakumen’s astral by holding down on stick and tapping up on pad, but the input display shows that by hitting up on pad you’ve released the direction)
1P Side: Attempt to perform an X-Axis charge move while walking forward** na (don’t know of any)
2P Side: Attempt to perform an X-Axis charge move while walking forward** na (don’t know of any)
Given the results of these tests, someone with a ps3 te pcb, or a ps3 hori pcb should test this. So far we know that a ps360 or mc cthulhu and ps3 pad can’t output true socd. We do not yet know what either of these games will do given a dpad socd signal (I’d try the ps3 te first)
Also, the data from my hitbox tests on bbcs are invalid, as my pcb(ps360) does not output socd(at least not on ps3, right?). I made assumptions, bad science. Sorry.
Oh god my brain hurts!:looney: Both the data and peoples reactions. Holy hell! Still fascinating though.
Anyway…
If someone entered a tourney with an ABC and started doing some of these shenanigans (walking sonic boom + cross up blocks…whatever) they would get no respect win or loose…just sayin.
@samaytg:
Input display on fighting games aren’t really going to be helpful, since all they do is tell you which bit was last sent to the console. Nothing about holding or charging times.
That’s why I wish (and yeah, this one’s a bit more farfetched, but hell) that more fighting games would do input display like [media=youtube]SeF7APCD2s0[/media] and Quake 4 (no video ) do it.
Don’t suppose it’s due to input leniency as to why it works on Capcom games and not Aksys ones? (Since I read it doesn’t work on Blazblue and AH3?)
Just a theory. I’m probably wrong, but it’s something to consider.
Maybee the term "SOCD exploits vulnerable" is more appropriate.
The speed at wich people operate key preses and release or stick movemement is pure ergonomics.
If you play with a joystick that has less clearance between actuator and switches than your competitor you can performs motions faster than him, same goes about button boards if you type faster or your buttons are more sensitive.
Technically a game like SFIV takes a snapshot of the controller’s state (all tested inputs) once a frame.
doing a sonic boom by tapping front and punch while holding back is giving a cleaner input for sonic boom than most people can on a stick, it doesn’t mean some people cannot input a clean sonic boom on a stick.
On both input methods you can delay your punch and maintain front for a few frames to walk a bit before sonic boom or release it asap.
For Guile’s sonic boom, SFIV needs a minimum of one frame to register front+punch and SFIV engine will check if you have a charge stocked
Whether :
-You input the motion on a punchboard while holding back
-You input the motion on a stick/punchboard while releasing back
Does not change anything to the fact it is only the speed at which you click the front switch that matters.
If you need 4 frames to reach front with your stick when coming from back you need to work on your execution. And maybee the best for you would be to pick a punchboard because it suits your hand skills better.
If you need 8 frames instead of 3 to perform a HCF on a punchboard maybee you would be better off with a stick because it suits your hand skills better.
Whether you play on a stick or punchboard the bare minimum frames to input
a charge move is 1,
a QCB QCF is 2,
a SRK, HCF, HCB is 3
a chickenwing motion, SPD or tk air move is 4,
an ultra is 7.
It is your job then to get as close to this with whatever entry method suits you best.
If you are slower than that the SFIV input system leniency will help you and register your unclean motion and if possible kara cancel it from everylower priority move/stance.
If you do the whole motion **faster than that,**there is no failsafe you will fail and the game will interpret the registered input as something else.
Once again there is no cheating involved by picking an input method that fits your needs best than another.
To date I think it is difficult to find a better compromise for motion execution speed than a DPAD or mini analog stick but they carry the drawback off all extremely sensitive devices they don’t tolerate lack of accuracy from the performer.
Most people prefer an arcade size stick because they are the best compromise between execution speed and accuracy.
Some people favor punchboards because they beat sticks on speed or pads on accuracy on some motions that they use a lot (ex sonic boom) while being inferior to sticks or pads on some other motions they don’t use (ex zangief SPD).
does that make people who play zangief on a stick cheaters to those using fight boards … NO
does that make people who play guile/honda/vega/balrog on a punchboard cheaters to those using sticks … NO
Does that make people who use gamepads well enough to get the best of both worlds cheaters to those using one of the aforementioned method … NO
In your soul calibur example it all depends on how soulcalibur handles inputs, if it does like SFIV a snapshot once a frame you gain no speed enhancement in motions execution with either entry methods. as described in the wall above
Because whatever is the state of the directions switches the game needs to register 5 different inputs, and to register 5 inputs it requires that there is at least 5 frame of recording otherwise two inputs will melt into one during the same frame.
if SC is SOCD exploits vulnerable that means you can basically do the motion you described by holding all buttons for a snap of a milisecond and the highest priority motion will register, and that could be considered an unfair advantage.
SO to determine that you need to determine if SC is SOCD exploit vulnerable. aka you can register 2-3-4 contradicting directions simultaneously AND validate all of them simultaneously in the special motion detection routine.
Somehow given how tekken/sc movement works and the high number of diffrent motion : rising moves, crouching moves crouched moves sidestep moves, jumping moves, jumped moves etc I don’t see SOCD inputs being very usefull and it has probably been tackled.
Amp, If I remember right, Jin, hakumen, Taokaka, and litchi’s astals are charge. Tao and litchi are 4-6 charges while jin and haku’s are 2-8 charges.
@Prokiller88, Thank you for the information.
I will test later, since frankly, since the only charge moves I’ve heard about so far are Astrals, I can’t see how they would be considered game breaking no matter what our findings.