what the eff did i just read
What you read sir, are obviously the musings of a man who is bi-winning, posting on the fuel of his tiger blooded, adonis laden DNA.
And if i give you 2 ?
I don’t think being able to think out of the box makes me a wizard especially in such a case where" it is so easy. maybee one day you can do the same thing until then a good start is opening your mind to controversy and acknowledgement of alternate points of view.
Okay here you go
1st method
Put your thumb on your Dpad, and press in the center. that wasn’t hard was it ? that actually enables all 4 directions switches so naturally as a corollary it enables simultaneously right and left and up and down.
2nd method
Press your Dpad to the left and press your analog stick to the right it similarly works with up and down.
I personally don’t use it, and once again I am not running tourneys and I can’t speak on behalf of CAPCOM so it is not for me or anybody here to say that it is cheating or not. Nevertheless it is a (simplistic) macro and it enables people to do what is otherwise humanly impossible, if some people consider pushing buttons simultaneously cheating what about a MCU doing it for you.
What about mapping button 8 to right and button 7 to left on a mainstream/licensed product ?
Once again it is not a technical problem it is a game design topic. there are two answers for it.
Tournament rules
Official statement and naturally game patching (Like for unblockable ultras)
Aside from that you me them everyone, we are just speaking. I’ve put forward a truckload of valid points, so far all I’ve read from the opposite party is not even close to concretely invalidating any of them.
All I’ve got to read are teenager’s insults, and bold (but empty) statements often without the slightest attempt at backup, from people who actually haven’t even read what they try to invalidate.
Come on guys labeling someone a cheater in a tournament is a serious accusation is that all you’ve got to enforce your opinion. This kind of behaviour gives me nausea.
That method actually got patched out of SSF2T:HDR.
You can also put both on the same button with diodes.
Okay, I’m going to make this simple:
Joysticks are designed such that opposite cardinal directions are impossible to press. This is not a “flaw” of joysticks, as you suggest, but a feature designed exclusively to prevent SOCD inputs.
I don’t understand why this is so complex. If you can perform moves (like the walking Sonic Boom) that cannot be replicated on a stock stick or pad than you are glitching the game.
Oh dear, what a silly thing to read to wake up to.
let me make this simple ajunta
link me to a CAPCOM OFFICIALLY LISCENCED ABC console controller
oh right, there aren’t any
edit:
that’s because this game, being originally an arcade game, is being made from the perspective of playing this game via stick. like narcowski and everyone else in this thread is saying in reply to you
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE TWO OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS ENGAGING AT THE EXACT SAME TIME BECAUSE A JOYSTICK SHAFT CAN ONLY TOUCH 1 OR 2 ADJACENT MICROSWITCHES AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ENGAGE LEFT AND RIGHT AT THE SAME TIME WITHOUT MODIFICATION.
edit edit: thanks amp for the testing, and sorry about where this thread went.
Please, post a source of this, possibly a source of the “inventor” of the sticks stating this. 
Then why are gamepads able to issue Simultaneous opposite direction inputs. Are they flawed.
I never said it was a flaw btw, what i say is it can be considered as a flaw if you want to be able to press switches accurately or simultaneously, but it is a perk if you want to do fast complex motions like guile or zangief ultras which are more difficult if you press all the switches independently.
It is like racing, if you race on a highway you are better off with a ferrari than a crossbike, you are better off with the crossbike if you race a inside a forest on a hill slope.None is flawed until you look after some specific perks and make by with the inherent drawbacks.
back to the point Sticks have some perks and some drawbacks, so does button boards, for most of us the sticks are a better compromise , for a few the button boxes are the best compromise and for some it is gamepads, if one of them was the final best input method everybody would use the same.
Believe me if button boxes were that cheated madcatz would be the first to do them and all the best SFIV players would use one, the fact is people who label them cheated wouldn’t use one if even if we gave them money, because those boards have other drawbacks it just not in the same department.
speaking about mechanical filters
The shaft is a mechanical filter and achieved that when 25 years ago everything done mechanically did not have to be processed on a lousy Z80 or similar sluggish MCU. same as restrictor gates.
A biderectional gate too is not a flaw of joystick, but a feature designed exclusively to prevent parasite unwanted input detection. it is a mechanical filter, would you play street fighter IV with such a gate ? hell no, it is an unwanted mechanical filter, just like the shaft is for people who like pressing their switch by hand for whichever reason,A- ergonomics or B - getting the best of the game engine.
Wanting to make the best out of a game engine is what we all do, we want the best stick with minimal debounce latency but appropriate accuracy, with a screen that displays pictures asap, we P-link, some use turbo, some like negative edge, some hate it. some use piano input was that done by design what do we know ?
If you play on a madcatz SE edition and cheap shit or worse some kind of knockoff, you don’t label people playing with top japanese parts cheaters, while in the end they have an edge over you only just because they have different controllers.
what is a stock stick or pad ?
what do you mean by perform moves, there are things that are easy to do on a Madcatz TE stick that are virtually impossible (extremely difficult) to do on a Madcatz Pad and vice versa, There are things that are possible to do on a button box that are extremely difficult to do on a HRAP3 and vice versa.
As for your example the walking sonic boom it is no more/less possible on a hitbox/keyboard than it is on any fightstick or pad. forward input cancels back charge the frame it registers. so while you hold both direction you instantly cancel any back charge and it works exactly the same for up/down you cancel your down charge as soon as the up switch is registered closed, so you never have more than 1 frame of charge ( to my knowledge there are no charge moves using this few)
Some people here who obviously haven’t tried a button board themselves suggest it makes defending from crossup attacks free since all you need to do is hold both directions.
Which is total bull shit. in SFIV when you hold both direction your character walks forward so he is in fact never blocking, the very frame the other guy crosses up you start walking in his direction so whatever side he is landing on you are NOT blocking and you get hit.
If you are walking front though you will block a crossup attempt from the enemy regardless of whether you use a buttonboard or a fightstick changes nothing to that.
let me make this simple mr.morti
link me to a CAPCOM OFFICIALLY FORBID logitech keyboard or gamepad use.
oh right, there aren’t any
Sterile argument if capcom wanted to rule out simultaneous opposite presses of direction they would have implemented a filter on their game input engine that would take care of that so they wouldn’t have to endorse or forbid each and every new hardware on the market.
Oh wait that is exactly what they did. the game engine always discards or override one of the inputs coming from the controller when two opposite signal are received.
and yet capcom took the liberty to implement a software filter to avoid any problem linked to flawed or modded controller/arcade cabinets. mind you they probably thought about this issue before us and they took care of it.
oh please. not that lame argument again we 5 you 2 we right you wrong. Grow up dude number of believers accounts for truth.
yes that is the very purpose of the device dude, what happenend in your head that made you think it was usefull to write that, and further more to write that in capital letters ?
This was a nice thread until Ajunta’s wall of nothingness decided to show up and everyone looked at him like he was stupid.
Okay, but that means all four directions, which means that you’ll be jumping in most cases, leaving you vulnerable to whatever. Fightboards allow you to use only two directions. And if you notice with many pads with a good design (If you’ve ever actually taken one apart), this is impossible, because there is a small cross-shaped piece of plastic that prevents SOCDs.
Okay, but then you can’t use any of the face buttons, which you can on a fight board, and if you’re going to say that “It doesn’t matter, you can use the shoulder buttons,” then you obviously have no idea the importance of Light/Medium/Heavy
Tournament rules specifically prevent the use of “hacked” joysticks, and turbo buttons. Now, a joystick that can output two directions that is not possible to any stick without “hacking” it by modifying the layout, and hacking the PCB and connecting it to things that were not intended.
And you think “Oh, it’s just a turbo button, why is that so bad?” Well, considering you can get it to spam the same move every frame, it makes 1-frame links easy as hell. And in this case, it makes crossup blocking completely easy as hell, and also allows forward walking sonic booms. Sure, the turbo button seems innocent, but when you get to the game specifics, it does give a significant advantage to someone who has one, and the only way to attain this advantage is to purchase a product that comes with it. Turbo buttons were never in arcades, nor are they on most stock pads, and were obviously not intended by the developers. If they had been, there would have been a turbo button in the arcades.
When you have SOCD, you are gaining an advantage by purchasing an additional product or modifying one that
You don’t know what the devlopers intended. Perhaps they didn’t even code for SOCD, and the result are these glitches that do actually mean that you are cheating, and thus are breaking the game, making the fight board an actual game-breaking mechanism.
Patch? Do you know how impossible it would be to send the patch to every single arcade which already purchased the PCB for 10s of thousands? “But they don’t have Hit Boxes in the arcade, why send a patch out to them?” Exactly, they don’t have a fight board, because it wasn’t intended. You could still, in theory, put a fight board in the arcade, and the point of a patch is so that every single person is playing the same exact thing.
Now, to address the rest of your argument:
Same deal with turbo buttons. Simplistic macro, but these are banned, and on some rule sets, any macros that push buttons for you that are NOT specifically encoded in the game are also banned
You can’t do this without modifying it, and again, that falls under “hacking” your controller in the same exact fashion as hit boxes are hacking it. You HAVE to modify it, and not everyone can or wants to. You can’t just change this in game. Do you really think that’s possible to just “map it and be done?”
You don’t know how the developers designed it. I already explained this above. They may have never coded for SOCD, because they shouldn’t have to. And thus, using both is most definitely cheating, because it exploits flaws in the game code.
Check what I said about arcades. Also, they damn well don’t have to patch it if they don’t want to. They’re not getting paid to do it. They shouldn’t have this problem of SOCD. Because it wasn’t ever supposed to be possible on anything sold on the market, aside from dance pads.
You’re restating the same points and not listening to our side of the argument. And that just smells like a troll.
If this was our opinions, why do you think Amp is going through all of this extensive scientific testing? The test results show that it’s possible to do brainless crossover blocking and also be able to charge while moving forward. That is actually cheating.
Glitching doesn’t mean cheating. People, for example, power up Juggernaut in MvC2 and that’s just part of the game. Special cancels in Street Fighter are not a bug, they’re a feature.
The thread is originally about what happens in popular games when simultaneous opposite cardinal direction inputs are fed into the game.
As far as I can tell, there are two questions:
-
Is using controllers with independent directional controls cheating?
Personally, I’m not sure. Rules as written, it depends on the ruleset - though anyone serious will have a ‘because we said so’ rule anyway. Ultimately, this is a decision that tournament organizers will have to make. -
If it is cheating (which most people seem to think it is) what are reasonable ways to manage it?
It’s not always easily detectable in live play. I don’t know if MvC3 offers the same sort of input recording and display that SSFIV does for on-line play. It’s definitely not available in SSF2T:HDR. As others have pointed out, it’s not that hard to modify any number commonly used controllers in a way that provides access to SOCD.
In practical terms, it’s pretty easy to say “,no controllers capable of SOCD input allowed.” There’s really no way to detect subtle controller assist cheating in a BYOC setting anyway. It doesn’t happen because the people who want to compete don’t want to cheat, since, as long as it’s about the competition, any cheat is self-defeating. Then people who like to use button boards or keyboards, or whatever else, can install interlocks and play.
Banning button boards, keyboards, and other kinds of exotic controllers is IMO, not a good way to go because it reduces accessibility to the competition, and because people who want to cheat can still easily do so with modified controllers.
Exclusively using venue provided controllers is another possibility - this is what arcades do , but the whole BYOC practice is there for a reason.
Except that, as far as I can tell, ‘hacked’ is a bit like ‘pornography’, in that people can’t seem to define it, but ‘know it when they see it’ instead.
“And, if God had wanted men to fly, he would have given them wings.” I guess the developers never intended people to play as Anita or Super Turbo Akuma either? And only the Japanese ones were opposed to O. Sagat. The fact is that the community - not the developlers - decide what is, and isn’t cheating. .
When you customize the buttons on your stick, you are gaining an advantage by purchasing an additional product or modifying one that
And instead of an alarm clock waking me up, a beautiful woman should fellate me. Sorry, user input is hostile, and it’s the developlers’ job to make sure the system handles it.
xkcd: Exploits of a Mom
Without a specific context, SOCD isn’t cheating. Is Amp cheating when he does the testing? What rule does SOCD violate?
There are plenty of examples of bug exploits that people have used in the past in competition. Some of them - like the Valle CC - are even celebrated. Other things which are clearly intentional parts of a game (like ST Akuma) are made illegal by typical competition rules.
Banning SOCD capable controllers for competition is probably a reasonable decision, but that has to do with the nature of the community, and not the game.
Are you referring to my testing efforts, or to the weird direction this thread went in?
This is the silliest thing I’ve read in quite some time.
can we call them buttonboxes
Point is there is nothing wrong with banning of forbiding enything in a tourney as long as it is cleanly stated before hand. Hacked can mean a lot.
is slanting your joystick hacking ,
is changing your switches to more/less reactive ones hacking ?
is changing the panel layout hacking ?
is mapping grab/focus/taunt to a one button hacking ?
is adding light hacking ?
is adding light synchronised with links hacking,
is mapping slect to an accessible front button to perform B-link on short and jiab hacking.
is madcatz stock turbo hacking ? ( move issued every 2 frames)
is MCU controlled auto B-link hacking ? ( always send Back/select input 1 frame after a positive edge input )
is MCU controlled B-link paired with turbo hacking ? (combine both achive permanent input auto link basically)
Fair enough, when you remove cheap knockoff to replace with sanwa JLF-8YT you are purchasing an additionnal product or modifying one that.
yeah that is right, ironically enough some of these products (madcatz,hrap) are 'licensed" by capcom , something that people seem to hold very dear here.
nobody does, it is very clear though in SFIV that they coded for SOCD since they have a gamedependant priority on moves, which obvioulsy is impossible to achieve from a driver/electronic point of view alone. In SFIV the game engine always choose the least safe option (jump or walk forward) when he receives 2 simultaneous opposite inputs.
And they don’t need to patch the game because it has been like that from the ground up. Now in some other games maybee the issue hasn’t been tackled in SFIV it has been and it gives SOCD no edge over polar input, not for blocking and not for anything else, if anything was possible with a button box it would be with a macro editor, and you can ask MAJ a forward walking sonic boom goes as far as input leniency goes, 3 frames at best, which you can do with a stick just the same.
And you smell dangerously close to the godwin point, I would not have to rewrite the same shit if people read it before insulting me or whoever doesn’t abide exactly by their very personal point of view.
In SFIV it is not possible to charge while moving forward and it is not possible to guard at all with both directions simultaneously pressed, and it is not possible to stay on low stance if the up input is registered as closed. MAJ years of combo editing and my very own scientific testing hint in that direction I am sorry if amp results hint in the other direction that would be intresting to determine why, my guess is we don’t test the same versions/games.
So in the end i am not trying to be a smart ass, yest most characters are not supposed to be able to charge while moving forward but up to now no macro or input system can achieve that without a hack in the game engine itself.
There are no tournament rules against hacked sticks.
All that’s banned is the use of Turbo; then game-specific stuff.
Some people still don’t get the point of this thread.
-
**To study the actual effects of SOCD-capable controllers on various games.
**
While certainly not new, SOCD capable controllers still have not been looked at with serious scrutiny in the FGC, to the best of my knowledge. I wanted to end the nonsense and trolling by providing real, hard data for what fucking happens in these games when SOCD capable controllers are added into the mix. -
To establish which of these effects and advantages are truly unfair.
It’s pretty clear that the advantages SOCD’s afford players in HDR, taking away entire chunks of the game’s strategy that has been in place practically since the genre’s inception (crossups), and drastically altering the way a good percentage of the entire cast plays (walk forward+charge) is not at all fair. You literally have to start basing your tactics and strategy going into the game based on what controller your opponent uses. Even as a fight board user I will say this is stupid, and will push for HDR tournaments, for the time being at least, to discourage or ban use of SOCD capable controllers.
However, in SSF4, the only truly aberrant behavior SOCD’s afford is the ability to not let go of “back”, and simply tap forward to do sonic booms (also applicable all charge moves), and as an extension, hold back, tap forward twice do do Guile’s U2, or Boxer’s U1 and Super, etc. Yes this is an advantage, and I’m keeping an open mind to suggestions otherwise, but I don’t believe that it constitutes an “unfair” advantage. Yes, it makes charge moves easier to execute, but it doesn’t allow anything that strictly was impossible before, and don’t have to re-strategize around the controller itself. As of right now, I feel comfortable with how Super SF4 handles SOCD capable controllers, and will not only NOT push to discourage or ban their use, but I might just see it as my “optimal solution” for SOCD handling in-game, as opposed to the easy method of forcing neutral.
This project is looking at the effects of SOCD controllers on a case-by-case basis. Some people seem to not get this fact either. Akuma is banned from HDR tournaments, does that mean he’s banned from all games he’s in? No.
- Raise awareness of SOCD controllers so developers might keep them in mind when developing games in the future.
Super Street Fighter 4 seems to be the golden child of the tests so far, it’s quite clear to me that the developers anticipated SOCD controllers, and coded their game accordingly. Whether or not their solution (forcing “forward” as opposed to the popular opinion of forcing neutral) is optimal remains to be seen however.
HD Remix, Marvel 2, and Marvel 3 are thus far the big problems for SOCD controllers, they blatantly provide unfair advantage to players who use them. These are cases where people might want to begin asking for a patch (though I don’t know if a patch is going to be reasonable for HDR and MvC2) and in the meantime discouraging use in those games. These games are the big example we should hang on the wall with a sign “How NOT to do it”
BlazBlue is in the middle. They didn’t code solutions specifically for SOCD’s, but manage to not give players unfair advantage to players who use them. The solution is far from optimal however, and I would actually suggest is the one we should really hang a sign on as the example that we need to raise awareness.
Now, seriously, someone go tell the guys making Skullgirls about SOCD’s and the effect it can have on fighting games, let’s hope Skullgirls comes out and is SOCD-suitable.