my sentiments exactly. and i do think it’s okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn’t GG or BB…
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<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”<br><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.</div>
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P4U has 4 buttons actually.<br><br>You are also sticking to one detail (number of buttons) instead of looking at the bigger picture. In SF games you have 6 buttons, but many of your normals are unused. For example many of Ryu’s standing normals are overshadowed by his crouching ones, so having 6 buttons only offers you a huge selection on paper, not in practice. In air dashers you have less buttons, but you can be assured that most of them will get used in various situations.<br><br>What’s more, air dashers are not all about which button to press but also at what angle to attack at, with aerial moves playing a huge role. This is the natural result of having more movement options.<br><br>Now if you wanna argue that P4U is simpler than other air dashers, no one ever claimed otherwise, but Melty Blood and Arcana Heart are perfectly fine with 3 attack buttons.<br><br>Also your comment about scaling and 2A sounds like MVC3 to me, not like P4U. In P4U if you punish a big mistake by starting a combo with a bigger move, not only your possible combo routes are better, the difference in scaling is noticeable. That’s why if you predict most dragon punches, you can punish with an easy half life combo which will be unpractical to try during neutral game.<br>
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If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I’d like to hear it.
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LMAO, did i say that they had?
No, so don’t put words in my mouth, i am only saying that the spacing games is more than just footsies, certainly the game has less options compared to GG for example, but the whole idea of P4A is to have a simple game yet while it retains enough deep, a game to serve as a gateway for the newcomers on the FG genre
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4119/rogueyoshi">rogueyoshi</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>my sentiments exactly. and i do think it’s okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn’t GG or BB…</div>
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<br/>
LMAO
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/7004/Hecatom">Hecatom</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:<span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”</span></div><div class=“QuoteText”><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.</div>
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I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.<div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/19609/Negative-Zer0">Negative-Zer0</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>GG’s entry barrier is a fault with the game. Not sure if any player would agree with that, but its true.<div>MvC2 is way easier to get into, but hard as hell to master. That should be the goal of most games honestly, instead of catering to the .02% of the world…</div></div>
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GG is more accessible than many people believe, outside the FRC everything on the game is quite easy, not every bnb is execution heavy and is not combo heavy like other games (contrary to popular believe)</div></div>
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MvC2 is still easier from super motions that are a motion and two buttons, hardly any half circle motions, even character assists help, plus a simple heads up display make it easier to get into. If I post my heads up display for vsav it’ll make vsav look super fucking complex game.
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/7004/Hecatom">Hecatom</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:<span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”</span></div><div class=“QuoteText”><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.</div>
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I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.<br></div>
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When Yu’s best answer to Mitsuru’s 5A is “I guess I’ll slide and hope she doesn’t do nothing and then fatal me with 5B on reaction,” that’s dumb. And then you have stuff like Aigis’s ability to air dash j.c, which really just can’t be challenged by most characters. The normals are so over-the-top in Persona that interesting interactions are often quashed.<br><br>This is one of the reasons that “removing complexities” makes a game less fun sometimes.<br><br>If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I’d like to hear it.</div>
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my sentiments exactly
I’m not sure what constitutes an “easy” fighter by example, but I feel like some games are a little easier to get into, learn the basics, and build on that than others. P4A and, to some degree, MB have felt good to me for learning spacing, movement management, and a few simple rules for each game before moving on to the more complex functions. <br>
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<div class=“QuoteText”><a href="/profile/7004/Hecatom">Hecatom</a> said:<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4119/rogueyoshi">rogueyoshi</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>my sentiments exactly. and i do think it’s okay to limit options as long as the ones given are meaningful but they were just shy of pulling that off with persona. i have faith that if arcsys were to adjust it then the game would be golden, but you know how they are if a game isn’t GG or BB…</div>
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<br>
LMAO</div>
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It’s true though. Why would they invest as much in a franchise they don’t have full rights for?<br><br>P4U was a safe money maker that allowed them to experiment with new mechanics, like all the other fanservice games they did beforehand, and it was a fun diversion for a while. It was not meant to be something you quit other ASW games for.<br>
why did this thread turn into being about air dashers
From the mere mention of Guilty Gear.
IAD SIDEWINDER=SEX<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/67224/Inknail">Inknail</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>I’m not sure what constitutes an “easy” fighter by example, but I feel like some games are a little easier to get into, learn the basics, and build on that than others. P4A and, to some degree, MB have felt good to me for learning spacing, movement management, and a few simple rules for each game before moving on to the more complex functions. <br></div>
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Any game can be described as both easy and hard.<br><br>Street Fighter IV is easy, it has Ultras and big input/reversal windows.<br>Street Fighter IV is hard, it has links instead of a chain system and there are option selects, unblockables, and vortexes.<br><br>MvC3 is easy, it has less buttons than 2, no double motion inputs, X-Factor, easy chains, and simple mode.<br>MvC3 is hard, it moves fast, you have to manage 3 characters, you get hit with long combos for big damage, there are tons of fullscreen hitting things, when you lose characters you lose offensive options from assists.<br><br>MK9 is easy, combos all chain together with no timing needed, juggling is super lenient and the gravity on them is light, there are no DP, half circle, or double quarter circle inputs, you don’t have to worry about crossups, there are combo breakers.<br>MK9 is hard, is a phrase said by no one, ever.<br><br>So I’d say there are actually very few “easy games”. It’s easy to learn to reliably do normals, throws, and specials in any game. And it’s pretty easy to do combos on a training dummy. But every game becomes hard when you go online and fight a person who’s trying hard to win.<br><br>It’s not about the entry barrier, it’s about the skill ceiling. As long as something exists that a player can do, some people won’t be able to do it and/or deal with it and will consider the game hard for including it, because people online can do it and beat them with it. The “solution” would be making it so no one can do it, that way those that can’t do it because they don’t want to grind training mode don’t have to deal with people who did. Which, obviously no one who’s big into the genre enough to be on a dedicated forum for it wants.<br>
these all seem like pretty abstract things. does Marvel 2 have a higher skill ceiling than ST? how would you be able to tell if it did?<div><br></div><div>I like to think about games in terms of risk/reward and what kinds of behaviors are rewarded. I don’t really like how situations play out in SF4 for instance. but I doubt that has much to do with a skill ceiling or whatever.</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/17765/jedpossum">jedpossum</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>double post</div>
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lol, shows how much this forum sucks dick. i actually made that second post like 20 minutes before the first but it didn’t go through so i made the 2nd more detailed one
Please don’t mention mvc2 and mvc3 together. It’s a slap in the face to Mvc2. <br><br>High Execution is the fun factor for me when it comes to fighting games. Since that shit is gone and is replaced, easy 100% combos, huge input buffers, well…it force me to become a casual player and many alike. The only fighting games I own are games made before sf4. Because, how can I be impressed with combos/100% combos when everyone and their grandmother can do it? How can I be impressed with a comeback when theirs a mechanic designed for it to happen? How can I stay on my toes during a match and not lose focus to the point were I want to fall asleep when someone does a simple super and theres like a 30 minute wait.<br><br>Im not saying dont have a entry level, but damn, make that a mode or something. Dont alienate the fucking fans that made your ass!<br><br>if you like these mvc3, sf4, sxtekken, great! Happy for you. good job! but dont saying people are hating or full of it when they tell you what type of fighters they would have dedication to vs the type of fighters thats worth there time. Everyone are not drones that simply have to deal with it. Agree to disagree.<br>
this might be controversial, but one could say mvc2 (or any other game that lets a player do something like this) technically has a lower skillcap than a lot of games if you are able to convert a single clean hit into inf into guardbreak consistently. thats ignoring both the execution and difficulty it takes to land that clean hit though.
I don’t really mind how easy a fighting game is, as long as it rewards people properly for playing smart, it’s fun enough to keep playing and has enough depth and replay value to keep my interest.
I too, wonder why people think GG’s entry barrier is difficult. Back before I even took fighters seriously, I was able to understand the ups and downs of the mechanics like FD and SB. How air dashes worked and the basic combo system. It’s only when you get to stuff like FRCing that it starts getting harder, and even then, it’s only certain FRCs that are really difficult. <div><br></div><div>Also, on P4A, BB, and SG, I think these fighters do the best job (I don’t mention the 3D fighters of this gen because I haven’t played them…yet) at teaching the player, well, how to play. They all tell you how to play the game, about it’s characters, and SG even tells you about stuff like mixups and why it’s important. I think it’s very important to do this because even if the depth is there, there are many players whom wont know unless they really go into it. </div><div><br></div><div>Like, for example, Fate: Unlimited Codes. I first played this game when I didn’t play fighters seriously, so a lot of the mechanics in the game, in my eyes, seemed to just kinda be there. Like, sure, they served a purpose, but what was I to know what to do with it? I just wanted to beat up the AI on my psp and try to figure out the story to this series I had never heard about until that game. So, to narrow it down to a single mechanic, the reflect dash (sorry if I get the names and/or usages wrong but it’s been months since I last played). To me, it was just a command dash that took meter and maybe just helped you get in. But when you tell me that I can cancel my attacks into it and keep doing combos from it, allowing me to do longer, more damaging, and flashier combos, well now I’m certainly more interested. Now instead of my doing ABC special, I can start doing ABC dash ABC special. And from there, I can learn more usages for it. </div><div><br></div><div>Now I’m aware the Fate has trials that use the relfect dash so it’s not like they never tell you and I’m just using it as an example, but when games can explain to you what something does, and more importantly, WHY YOU SHOULD CARE, it gives the player more reason to explore and thus, they’ll find more enjoyment. </div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/57681/IglooBob">IglooBob</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>these all seem like pretty abstract things. does Marvel 2 have a higher skill ceiling than ST? how would you be able to tell if it did?<div><br></div><div>I like to think about games in terms of risk/reward and what kinds of behaviors are rewarded. I don’t really like how situations play out in SF4 for instance. but I doubt that has much to do with a skill ceiling or whatever.</div></div>
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I suppose top level play and/or TAS videos can show how fast and execution heavy a game can get, depending on what you mean by “skill cap”.</span></font><blockquote class=“Quote” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4119/rogueyoshi">rogueyoshi</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>this might be controversial, but one could say mvc2 (or any other game that lets a player do something like this) technically has a lower skillcap than a lot of games if you are able to convert a single clean hit into inf into guardbreak consistently. thats ignoring both the execution and difficulty it takes to land that clean hit though.</div>
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<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>You spin out of infinites in MvC2, but even if you didn’t if it’s so hard to pull off that people never do it doesn’t mean that the skill cap is high?<br>And lol that’s my quote in your sig from some SRK article forever ago, how long have you had that there?</span></font>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4806/tataki">tataki</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20554/NickRocks">NickRocks</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>If a fighting game doesn’t have a higher execution to practice, then…what the hell is there to do</div>
</blockquote>So reaction, spacing, knowledge, prediction, assessing situations, functioning under pressure etc. are skills that don’t really exist and as soon as you can do special moves with Ryu in SF2 you reach Shooting D’s level? I think you are mixing fighting game with rhythm games…<br></div>
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<p class=“MsoNormal”>Some people enjoy practicing difficult combos as it gives
them another thing to do in practice mode; it also presents another challenge
that can provide a sense of progression once a person overcomes it. It’s not for everyone and I’d personally prefer those
difficult combos to be more optional. <br></p><p class=“MsoNormal”>I will admit though, seeing stuff like Sako doing the
bb hood infinite and MarlinPie’s doing his awesome combos is hype.
</p>
<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2” style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-size: 10pt;”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>As person who loved Breakers revenge. The reason I love breaker revenge because most of the game design is not just random. All character tools have some application that use in breaker system.</span></font><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”><br></span></font></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>while in other game i notice trend where some tools are ignore because their limit application. </span></font></div>