A lot of fighters are easy at the surface.<br><br>It’s really hard to curb emergent elements, which is what makes a game harder over time.<br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4806/tataki">tataki</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”>
Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?<br><br> Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the “shortcut” of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn’t count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.<br><br>Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you’ll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to “accessible” games.<br></div>
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<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>I didn’t mention the player’s name because he’s well-known in the GG scene and don’t want to seem like I’m name-dropping. But he’s been in the scene since its inception and even lived in Japan for a year to go to school and to compete, so yeah it’s not just some random guy. </span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>I picked a fine example. Two buttons >>>>>>>>> directional input no matter how you look at it. If you’re worried about dashes like in Marvel 2, you could create a height restriction on it just like so many other games do. I don’t know what MB is so there’s that, but if it’s another Arc Systems game and they put in the two-button dash, then that’s great and it should be put into GG. They don’t and decisions like that make the game arbitrarily difficult. </span></font></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div>
GG already has a height restriction. If you input 96 it will automatically start the dash at the minimal height possible. In any case, you are complaining over something that’s incredibly easy and if you sat down to play the game for 2 weeks you’d be used to it by now. I didn’t complain when I needed to start doing IAD with 2 buttons in Melty Blood, I played and played until it became second nature. Both methods are EASY and just require GETTING USED TO. If something was needlessly hard believe me I’d be the first to complain about it.<br>
If a fighting game doesn’t have a higher execution to practice, then…what the hell is there to do
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20554/NickRocks">NickRocks</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>If a fighting game doesn’t have a higher execution to practice, then…what the hell is there to do</div>
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React to and predict an actual human intellect.<br>
What’s your opinion of Pocket Fighter/Super Gem Fighter Mini-Mix as an entry level fighting game? At first blush it seems like it would fit the bill (one punch and kick, combos that are as easy as tapping buttons in rapid succession), but there are play mechanics even I as an intermediate player couldn’t master. (The item system from Warzard immediately comes to mind.)<div><br></div><div>Power Stone also seems like a reasonably approachable fighting game, although it’s not a versus fighter in the traditional sense. The fact that you can run just about anywhere by holding the joystick in that direction, along with the elimination of special move input commands, makes me think that it would be a good toe in the water for casual players.</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/83505/lightskintwin">lightskintwin</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”>
You’re literally using your own opinions and stating them as facts coupled with baseless generalizations. I honestly don’t even know where to begin… </div>
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No. First paragraph was me bringing up the general opinions of the community. And these are complaints people have had with the game. I’m not about to quote everyone but I remember when SF4 came out a lot of people had those complaints which I’ve echoed.<div><br></div><div>The second paragraph was my personal opinion in comparison to Samurai Shodown. So I don’t see how I used my own opinions to back myself up. You must have terrible reading comprehension skills.</div>
<div><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: 1.7em;”>if you mean easy fighters as in low entry barrier, then yeah its a good thing. if you mean easy as in low skill </span><font size=“2”><span style=“line-height: 22.65625px;”>cap, then that’s horrible and its the reason why the genre is losing respect from even it’s best and most dedicated players</span></font><br></div>
There is nothing wrong with making a game LOW by entry. <a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w”>If the entire game lowers the skill cap, and has a rubberband type logic then there is something wrong with it </a><br><br>I’m sure Capcom doesn’t care about the pro players or vet players. Making mechanics to lower the differences of skill between is kind of dumb.<br>http://iplaywinner.com/storage/oneuse/Screen%20shot%202011-10-20%20at%207.41.48%20PM.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1319164933474<br><br>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/20554/NickRocks">NickRocks</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>If a fighting game doesn’t have a higher execution to practice, then…what the hell is there to do</div>
</blockquote>So reaction, spacing, knowledge, prediction, assessing situations, functioning under pressure etc. are skills that don’t really exist and as soon as you can do special moves with Ryu in SF2 you reach Shooting D’s level? I think you are mixing fighting game with rhythm games…<br>
There’s nothing wrong with having a game that’s easy to pick up, but hard to master.
A game with a low entry barrier isn’t a bad thing. What’s important is the end depth. One thing people often mistake is complexity = depth. P4A is one of the simpler (read simpler, not simplest) fighters this gen, but retains so much depth that you can keep coming back for more.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Also why would GG (arcsys fighters in general) need a two button dash when there’s a height limit AND a shortcut to do it instantly? Especially in a game where the main speedy ground movement is a run? It’s not like SG where about half the roster can run and the other half can dash. </div>
I don’t understand the “argument” for two button dash in Arcsys games either. However, you are right about people confusing complexity for depth.<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
Well Divekick is the greatest game ever made and it’s only got two buttons, so yes.<div><br></div><div>Real talk though, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with games that have low execution requirements or less resources to manage, you just have to be careful about oversimplifying the game. Ideally a game will have simple mechanics but still have a deep, evolving metagame. Marvel 3 kiiiiinda fits that definition (easy on the fingers, seemingly endless possibilities) but I guess is regarded as too random and is not a good game for casual players. So I’m not sure what is a perfect example aside from Divekick; I’ll have to try out Breaker’s Revenge.</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/601/Raz0r">Raz0r</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/4806/tataki">tataki</a> said:</div><div class=“QuoteText”>
Maybe you should quote a random stream monster and make a generalization based off of that as well?<br><br> Instant air dashes in GG are easy as hell with the “shortcut” of 9 being considered as the first 6. You just need to get used to the motion, like how every player needed to get used to doing a fireball motion when starting to play SF. In MB the directional IAD input is harder IMO (because the 9 doesn’t count as a 6) but that game has a 2 button dash which makes things easy. You picked a really bad example.<br><br>Wavedashing backwards in a proper pace in MVC3 is harder than all the movement shit you’ll ever need in GG, if you really want to compare it to “accessible” games.<br></div>
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<font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>I didn’t mention the player’s name because he’s well-known in the GG scene and don’t want to seem like I’m name-dropping. But he’s been in the scene since its inception and even lived in Japan for a year to go to school and to compete, so yeah it’s not just some random guy. </span></font><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div><div><font face=“Arial, Verdana” size=“2”><span style=“line-height: normal;”>I picked a fine example. Two buttons >>>>>>>>> directional input no matter how you look at it. If you’re worried about dashes like in Marvel 2, you could create a height restriction on it just like so many other games do. I don’t know what MB is so there’s that, but if it’s another Arc Systems game and they put in the two-button dash, then that’s great and it should be put into GG. They don’t and decisions like that make the game arbitrarily difficult. </span></font></div><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal;”><br></div></div>
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Fuck 2 button dashes(plus lol mvc players and their innability to do dashes without them), if you are so useless that doin 66, 96 is so much for you then i feel very sorry for you<div>Besides adding 2 button dashes as a macro takes away a combination that is more useful for something like the Faultless defense or the slash back</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/601/Raz0r">Raz0r</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/8228/Effenhoog">Effenhoog</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Persona 4 Arena did a decent job of keeping the game simple without completely ruining it. That said, I do think P4A went a bit too far with this, to the game’s detriment.<br><br>As someone who has mostly played Guilty Gear for 5 or 6 years I can definitely appreciate a game being less difficult, but if you go too far your game can definitely start to suffer<br></div>
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I believe P4A got a lot of things right, some even better than GG. Let’s face it, the execution-heavy nature of GG is both a superfluous handicap and it keeps many people from playing. For example, air dashing. Why not give a two attack-button airdash instead of only being able to airdash by double-tapping a direction? I brought this point up to a GG player and he said it shouldn’t be easier because then too many people would be proficient with airdashes.What kind of backward thinking is that? Being able to master double-tapping as soon as you jump so you get a close ground airdash is a waste of time and shouldn’t be so difficult. </span></font><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>I won’t get into the RIDICULOUS amount of meter management the game has and how a few tweaks to the interface can help make it way easier to follow. </span><div style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”><br></span></div><div>I love Guilty Gear, LOVE IT, but the players make it sound elitist. When P4A came out and simplified so many of Arc Systems mechanics, I thought it was a blessing. Of course GG players got a bit butthurt over it, but removing the unnecessary difficulty of execution removes the belief that only robotic people should be good at it. I hope with future updates of GG they’ll take steps to reworking its problem spots just like +R’s first patch did.</div><div><br></div><div>I recognize I’m a former MvC2 player and we had our shit ruffled when some mechanics of Marvel 3 were made to be easier, but a lot of the changes were so drastic it made it into a different game. </div></div>
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Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”<br><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.
<div><br></div><div><br></div>lower barrier of entry = good<div><span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>element of randomness, rewards stupidity = bad</span></div>
GG’s entry barrier is a fault with the game. Not sure if any player would agree with that, but its true.<div>MvC2 is way easier to get into, but hard as hell to master. That should be the goal of most games honestly, instead of catering to the .02% of the world…</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:<span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”</span></div><div class=“QuoteText”><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.</div>
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I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.<div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/19609/Negative-Zer0">Negative-Zer0</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>GG’s entry barrier is a fault with the game. Not sure if any player would agree with that, but its true.<div>MvC2 is way easier to get into, but hard as hell to master. That should be the goal of most games honestly, instead of catering to the .02% of the world…</div></div>
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GG is more accessible than many people believe, outside the FRC everything on the game is quite easy, not every bnb is execution heavy and is not combo heavy like other games (contrary to popular believe)</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/7004/Hecatom">Hecatom</a> said:</div>
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<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/11194/Kikuichimonji">Kikuichimonji</a> said:<span style=“font-family: ‘lucida grande’, ‘Lucida Sans Unicode’, tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 1.7em;”>Footsie is boring as all hell in P4A because there are only 3 buttons you can use to footsie with. Not enough options to keep it from “If he does X I should do Y.”</span></div><div class=“QuoteText”><br>Oh and the ridiculous over-the-top scaling on 2A makes it so that oki leads to less damage than random hits.</div>
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I disagree with this because footsies are only a little part of the spacing game, wich includes not only your normals but also your specials and your air normals, yes you have less options on the ground if you only go by your normals, but you have access to all the other mobility options that help with your spacing game.<br></div>
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When Yu’s best answer to Mitsuru’s 5A is “I guess I’ll slide and hope she doesn’t do nothing and then fatal me with 5B on reaction,” that’s dumb. And then you have stuff like Aigis’s ability to air dash j.c, which really just can’t be challenged by most characters. The normals are so over-the-top in Persona that interesting interactions are often quashed.<br><br>This is one of the reasons that “removing complexities” makes a game less fun sometimes.<br><br>If you really think any character in P4A has as many relevant options as a GG counterpart, I’d like to hear it.