There’s been an imbalance in fighting game design ever since the invention of “meter” and super moves. While it’s true that Super Turbo only built meter by offensive action, it still was a system that rewarded the player who was ahead by giving them a super weapon - as if they needed it by that point.
Games where the person who is winning is rewarded with extra tools to win even better, do need a balancing mechanic so that the person who is behind has a trump card they can play to offset the playing field no longer being level.
Also, FYI, the drama of the famous SF3 parry comeback was a special situation created by the parry system itself. Most fighting games have never had a iconic moment like that - the parry system is all but specifically designed to set up that “he can’t possibly counter ONE MIRRION HITTOS can he… can he?!” moment. SFIV hasn’t had that moment because it doesn’t have something that functions like the parry system - not because Ultra meters are preventing it from happening.
Marvel is the only other fighting game that can set up moments like that due to the ultimate combat drama of someone who is on their last character finding a way to take out the other guy’s entire team; a moment that has happened a few times over the years in some famous matches. Ironically, x-factor seems conceived in part to facilitate moments like that (regardless of how well / poorly it is executed for the moment.)
Well… X-factor might actually be interesting if a large chunk of the cast couldn’t already do 100% on several characters. I think what erally breaks it is the level 3 XFactor. It’s just way too much. I would be happier if they just lowered the bonus to lvl 3 or just got rid of it in general; I think it is a cool system, but it needs a few changes.
As far as comeback mechanics in general, they can be good or bad. I feel like they are bad if they are totally overpowering like lvl 3 XFactor or Vanilla SF4 Sagat’s Ultra. Things like parry and K-Groove or T.O.P. make the game more high stakes without completely overdoing it. Overall I am for comeback mechanics so long as they are not so much better than your standard options that your entire game plan revolves around using them.
I believe the idea around X Factor was to get rid of the MvC2 type of slippery slope, where if you lose then you just start losing harder. Generally, you will lose if you lose the first character by a decent margin. Losing CapCom meant getting your ass rushed down, losing your point might mean you aren’t nearly as much of a threat. With X Factor any character can become dangerous AND hard to kill. I see what they were going for, but I don’t think it works quite right. If they tweak it with a patch I would be a happy man.
So it’s okay to help the person who is winning win more, but not okay to have a seperate mechanics that balances that out, hmmmm. . .
And this is also why I don’t like the comback mechanic in Tekken 6, because it isn’t needed. There is no super meter or any advantage given to the person who first gains momentum other than location and momentum advantage.
In MvC however, there’s such a huge slippery slope that you can very well justify the need for a comeback mechanics of some kind.
I don’t think they’re necessary in any game. I would hardly consider guts or taking a little less damage when you’re almost dead as a come back mechanic.
The most impressive come backs are the ones that are earned without a mechanic to help them out. That’s just my opinion on that matter. It’ll result in less come backs, but when it does happen, it’s a lot more impressive and intense.
You can tell I’m not a fan of Ultras, xfactor, rage system in games.
I was thinking about that the other day, how super meters were originally the ANTI-comeback mechanic. Not only does the winning player have more health than you, but now he’s got a super-awesome-auto combo in his back pocket. After getting hit 2-3 times, all the momentum has shifted away from the guy with the lower health. Perhaps companies like Capcom realizes this and allowed you to build meter in ways other than offense: whiffed attacks, assists, taunts, parries, etc. Now they decided to try and even the playing field a bit with Ultras, special moves both players get from being beat up, and can’t easily be cancelled into like super moves in other games.
Fuck that. Gimme K-groove over any comeback mechanic ever in a Capcom game.
I always thought TvC’s Baroque was a cool comeback mechanic but after doing a podcast with RoyalFlush I learned it was more of a get out of jail free card than anything else.
I can’t speak on whatever else really. I’m really digging Garou’s T.O.P. system, at least it requires a hell of a lot more correct responses for big damage than just a simple uppercut into FADC, and that’s IF you chose to use T.O.P. at the end.
I’m no top player in any of the games mentioned, just some of my thoughts.
Obviously, you’ve never played Tekken before in your entire life… ever…
I don’t mind comeback mechanics, however when they are too rewarding, that’s when it becomes in an issue. X-factor in Marvel 3 is a bit too rewarding just because you landed a hit into a BnB. Seriously, killing characters off with a simple BnB, like that?
For the most part, Ultra’s in SF4 are not really all that bad.
If the opponent is losing and lands an ultra on you, it evens the playing field, having both opponents to find a way back in. However, I do hate those ultras that give you like, perfect oki
I don’t mind ultras too much, but I do think they do a little too much damage, ditto with X-factor.
Not sure how anyone can say T6’s rage system is a comeback mechanic done well. At least Ultras add something you need to work with… Rage system just means you want to combo someone from rage activation to death or worry about one random poke killing you.
and obviously no, comeback mechanics aren’t necessary. If they’re done well they can add some modicum of depth and excitement to the game. That’s rare though.
As stated before, I know I never mind burst since they bring no real “come back”, it just resets the position both players were in.
Oddly enough, Arcana Heart 3 has no come back system, but has heavy penalties for using something like a Burst.
Not to mention, a game called Daemon Bride (same people who made Arcana) had a small come back mechanic were as if you lose a round, you “level up” allowing all your special moves to become stronger (granted, you slowly become closer to leveling up as you play in the match). This didn’t really give you much of an advantage against the other player, but it did help. However, bursting in that game was like the worse thing in the world…
Comeback mechanics are okay but the reason ST/HDR are my favorite fighters is that everything does so much damage and meter is awarded only when you attack so the entire design forces both players to be on their A game every second never relying on a mechanic as a crutch.
LAWL @ modok saying ultras do TOO much damage, apparently you’ve never played st/hdr.
yea its also dumb bc if youre getting hits on the other guy then your reward is that his health goes down and yours doesnt and i guess some people just didnt find that rewarding enough and then encouraged it as a good thing to put in a game. hey yall michael jordan here with the new nba 1.5 patch notes, starting when the patch comes out youre gonna get an extra 2 points for every 3 shots you make. hella cool right??? save up those extra points and use them on a free drunk!!!
I’m probly going to get flamed for this but I don’t care
I think ultra system combined with the flawed mashing mechanic makes this game borderline not competitive.
We already have damage scaling, why give more pitty points to someone who is getting schooled? I swear it’s like all these super left wing bleeding heart liberals are designing game mechanics these days. =/
What irks me is some characters can mash to ultra like Ryu or Chun-Li. This game should of either removed the mash mechanic or have more legitimate hit stun.
People bash on Brawl for involving luck with tripping, and don’t get me wrong- that game is god awful and it’s what made me get into SSF4 because I was so disgusted with how causal it is. But after playing SSF4 I’m starting to see it also was hit with the causal stick although not as severe. Way too much guessing involved in SSF4, esp on wakeup. Guess wrong you may eat an ultra, guess right you may still eat an ultra if you drop something.
So basically due to some mechanics such as pity point ultras and mashing, I consider SSF4 “borderline not competitive.”
Again, it’s just my opinion so don’t bust anything over it.
Gotta point out that XFC doesn’t have to be a comeback crutch; you can use it to wipe out an opponents character near the start for example, hell even two if they’re assisting. Then suddenly level 3 x factor isn’t a huge advantage.
