I’ve seen so many high level matches decided by someone missing a link and then performing an unsafe move, I’m starting to think that utilizing them in those cases is generally inferior. Even if the damage done is less with an easier link, if the rate at which the harder link is dropped results in enough losses/damage taken, is it not then a sub-optimal choice?
It seems that even the most skilled players in the world (Sako etc) drop difficult 1 frame links in high-stakes tournament matches, so I’m starting to think that they aren’t worth it overall if the combo ends with an unsafe move. What do you make of this logic?
There are a lot of ways to think about this topic, and it can vary from game to game. If you have practiced something a lot and you just cannot seem to get it consistently in matches (especially tournament matches) and are constantly being punished for messing it up, then it may be wise to not attempt it (yet). That doesn’t mean you can’t keep practicing it and trying it in casual matches, but if you have a pretty high failure rate and are playing a serious match it might be better to keep it simple, especially if keeping it simple still nets somewhat comparable reward.
Ideally, optimizing combos is the way to go, but there is definitely the factor of individual ability to consider. Finding the right balance of execution and reward while considering your own limitations is something you kind of have to figure out for yourself.
The way I’ve started to approach this in my own play is to switch to easier links for anything that ends with an unsafe move where I can’t react to the missed link, or modify the combo with a safe ender.
I’m more talking about the concept in aggregate though, specifically for SF4. Think of the countless times someone has dropped a link in tournament play and then eaten a full combo, turning a positive situation into a very negative one. It might just be standing out to me because of how anticlimactic it is.
With Cody when i use U1 i sometimes have to go for a 1-frame link if i want to land the ultra or close the match, there is no way around it. Unfortunately the ender is one of the most unsafe specials in the game. If a miss the link there is also a fat chance someone is mashing a reversal too…
If i’m confident i’ll do hp criminal upper as an ender, less confident then i’ll change it to light criminal upper. Both are unsafe though lp CU is pretty difficult to punish. Unfortunately i have no safe specials on block to turn to so it’s all or nothing basically lol.
Well if your opponent is mashing you will get punished regardless, which is not rare to happen in high level play. Haitani at EVO was mashing betweens links not after an unsafe special.
LP CU is less difficult to punish than people realize but most of the punishes are pretty low. Almost all characters can punish even a PERFECTLY spaced LP CU on block (where only the very edge of the tornado hits) and that is METERLESS punish.
Here are a handful I’ve tested and found to work even against a carefully spaced LP CU
Ryu - sweep/crMK
Ken - crMK / kara HP SRK
Akuma - crMK (this one is tough, if the spacing is absolutely spot on then the crMK would hit on frame 6 so it’s blockable.)
Seth - sLP/sLK/crLP/crMP (if not properly spaced, otherwise crMP doesn’t reach.)
Dan - sLK/crMP (depends on spacing for the crMP)
Dudley - F+LP
Chun - crMK/farLK (EX Legs is prob best punish though, easy and mashable but costs 1 bar)
Makoto - sLK / sMP (MP whiffs if CU is spaced. LK always hits.)
Ibuki - sMK (best option, always works, she has others tho)
Rufus - sLK/sLP
Vega - crMP (easy as pie, always works no matter spacing.)
Balrog - sLP (free sweep follow up too!)
Gouken - Far MP/crMP/crLK
Gen - sMK (Mantis) easy to do and is cancelable
Sakura - crMK (of course)
Oni - sLK / f+LK
Yun - sMP
Zangief - sLK/sMP and if the LP CU isn’t properly spaced: LP SPD. If it’s spaced perfectly SPD will whiff.
THawk - sLP/D+F+LP/crLP/sLK
DJ - sLK/crLK
Juri - sLK
Adon - sLK / crMP (the MP is pretty tough and only works if the full CU hit, if only the tornado hit then generally Cody is out of range of the MP)
Evil Ryu - sMP
Fei - sMP/crMP/crMK/crLP (crLP is range dependent, it can whiff if CU blocked max range.)
Blanka - sLP (so easy.)
Rose - crMP (no surprise)
Cody - sLK/sLP/crMP/crLK (Only sLK works consistently the rest can potentially whiff based on range the CU was done.)
Guy - far MP (best option by far, he has others but should always go for this.)
Guile - far HP
Hakan - sMP / f+LK / F+LP
Sagat - crLP (range dependent, Cody CAN space it so that he is out of range of crLP and Sagat has nothing that would reach.)
Bison - crMK/crLK (tough to time)
Cammy - walk forward 1F sLP (tough punish to do consistently but works.) crMP (range dependent.)
Fuerte - nothing
Yang - sLP/sLK work if CU had full hits blocked, otherwise Yang has nothing.
Abel - far LK
Viper - Nothing (unless Cody did all hits then she can do sLK but it’s even then very finicky about range.)
Honda - crLP/sLP
Dhalsim - B+MK, crLK, B+LK (oddly despite being 3F I find B+LK to be harder to time than B+MK as a punish.)
Think of the countless times someone has done a sub-optimal combo and the opponent has one pixel of health left.
One frame links aren’t random. If you have perfect timing, you’ll hit it every single time. Is it easy? No, but it’s definitely possible to hit it more than 90% of the time. In addition, SF4’s links are plinkable to make them more reliable.
True, but in the case of a blocked shoryuken/unsafe move, you would likely eat a full combo instead of a single invincible special (assuming they don’t have ultra/can’t combo into it). That’s why I’m talking about those cases specifically, because you’re sort of betting the farm on something that will provide a marginal increase in damage.
That’s true, but I’m saying that overall if you look at how a given player performs, using 1f links in these cases might be doing more harm than good. I don’t think 1f links are random, but I do honestly feel like they’re tight enough that no amount of practice will remove the chance of dropping them in an actual tournament match.
I mean, they get dropped absolutely constantly in high level play, often multiple times per match. I’m starting to see them more as a tool that should be selectively applied rather than something that should just generally be used wherever possible.
You can see high level players go for the easier links. I see Infiltration use s.hk, cr.lp a lot, insteadt of the optimal cr.mp. Or cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.lp xx tatsu, insteadt of cr.mp xx tatsu. Just watch carefully. But for other characters like Abel for example, you have to go for step kick xx cs.hp xx cod. Without the link you cant play Abel on advanced level, and COD is unsafe as hell, but there isnt another possibility to go for a safer less damaging link, thats the only possible combo for abel after step kick, which he has to mix up with step kick, tornado throw, or step kick, normal throw, thats his game.
I knew about some of those punishes, and mostly damage is minimal. Though i guess i’m lucky most people don’t know the proper punish for a blocked lp cu.
Some characters will just blast through the cu with a special though, that hurts.
These are all characters that can convert that hit I listed into more damage via a special cancel. That’s half of the cast that can not only punish you with a small poke but can lead to a full combo or at least a knockdown. And that is only listing characters that can do it consistently regardless of spacing of the LP CU.
And as you mentioned, characters can blow through it with invincible moves. crLK - LP CU isn’t a true block string. crMP - LP CU is only a true block string if the first hit connects (which means it is more punishable) if only the tornado hits then it’s not a true block string, and if only the tornado hits you can’t FADC.
With Cody’s specials you are kind of screwed no matter what you do. There is no really good safe option to end a block string if you screw up a combo or you just want to chip out. Badstone is sometimes your best bet but it’s a gamble betting that your opponent WONT hit a button because there is so much of a gap between blockstun ending and badstone becoming active even for a heavy attack it’s 12F.
If you put the risk reward like that then obviousely i shouln’t even attempt unsafe blockstring enders.
The reason i still do it occasionally is because it conditions them so they won’t press buttons after i do a cr.lk or cr.mp, this allows me to force my way in again.
Have to use it very sparingly though, especially if people know Cody.
Bad stone as an ender, man, i can’t count how many times i’ve been hit out of that lol.
1fr links are not the same - some are easier and more natural, others have a more weird timing.
Another thing - there’s quite a difference between a plinkable and an unplinkable 1fr link.
My personal oppinion is - if the link is unplinkable and unsafe, then it is not optimal.
1.) will a dropped link cost you the round? don’t go for it, unless 2.) you’re already one hit from death and the link is your only way to take the round, then go for it.
If the round isn’t at stake, then you just figure how much you get from the link and what the chances are of hitting it. If you’re linking for a combo extension and it’s the only way to add on more damage, then you can probably go for it, if you’re throwing them in for another 30 damage because it’s ‘optimal max damage combo blah blah blah’, then you generally shouldn’t be going for it.
Easy example:
Makoto corner combo:
sHP: 80 damage
sHP xx Ex Hayate LP Fukiage Ex Tsurugi: ~380 damage
sHP xx Hayate Cancel sMP xx Ex Hayate LP Fukiage Ex Tsurugi: ~400, 1f link
So you’re betting 300 damage to gain 20 damage. You’ve gotta be like 95% on that link for it to be a positive EV against somebody who won’t punish your drop… value your own life, the wasted meter, and the lost mix-up opportunity however you want, but you’re gonna need like 99% consistency(you don’t) in the middle of matches for it to be worthwhile unless the round is already on the line. At the polar opposite end of the spectrum, the Fukiage above is unpunishable when dropped and extends an otherwise completed combo, it’s nothing but positive.
More in the middle are links from chainned attacks into something punishable, you aren’t losing out on any damage by going for it, you’re just risking the punish. These you just need to be like 80-90% on for it to be worthwhile.
tldr; you’re going to need to go for the combo extension links to get damage done, but fancy pants max damage combos are strictly for style.
