Hawk didn’t have a whiff grab until HDR. You missed my point…
edit:
All three guys got outplayed in close matches. That’s not a miracle, it’s Komoda being better than all three great players at that point in time in that set, despite the overall bad character matchups. It actually would not have meant as much if the matchups weren’t known to be that bad.
A. Kusumondo is just a player like anyone else. Has he put more time into than you or I, or perhaps even most ST players? Probably. That doesn’t mean you can’t too.
B. Please re-read what I wrote; you’ll realize your summation of my post is not only incorrect, but borderline insulting. Try to keep it a bit more civil.
A lot of people on here are talking about how the tiers got compressed in HDR. To continue with my example, I don’t see how Honda has gotten any better. He has a worse matchup against Dictator (loss of oicho loop, devil’s reverse) and imo the shotos (Ryu: fake fireball, Ken: strong dp) while maybe gaining a point vs Chun because of her nerfs and Sagat, who’s not even remotely the same character. And this is with the loss of much of his offensive power.
1st off, me personally, i can’t say 100% that kura was considering going for a boom, or that noguchi was anticipating a boom to come out at that point and that is why he went for the late wall dive at 6:07. only they know at that time during their match what they were going for etc. are you saying you know for sure that he knew he was going for a boom, so he decide to switch mid flight and extend the claw? i can’t say that either way, becuase i admit my mindgame is not on the level of those 2 and i cant pretend to know what they are thinking. personally, i don’t see many guile players risk throwing out a boom when vega is landing in front of them and (knowing) he could possibly extend the claw and get you clean.
in that match, there is only 1 instance where vega is landing in front of him and he throws out a boom to noguchi that connects. the other wall dive attempts by noguchi are where kura tries to meet them with jumping rh or an attempted flashkick (there’s also a backfist attempt but i find that pretty dangerous for guile). in some instances noguchi seems to know that kura is committed to the booms, and he wall dives over him instead of steering in front. by the different attempts he makes and the frequency he does them, i think kura was more prone to countering his wall diving with flashkick or some other anti air other than a boom.
steering is good, and it can still be done. i just feel that the wall dive cancel gives him an extra option for a possible safe escape or even a bait. are you saying since the time hdr has come out, and during the course of you playing it, you were always worse off for wall dive cancelling than if you would have attempted to steer away from an oncoming attack? i can’t say all my games have been vs high level players, but there’s been more than a few occasions where the wall dive cancel was good enough to bait some1 or escape their onslaught at a critical moment and i can say that some of these people were on my level (definitely not lower than me). at the same time, i’m not saying its the ultimate answer to all, as far as escape/bait, but i just i feel (personally) that it adds more mindgame
i mean come on. you make it sound like hi level players don’t make mistakes at all, or that they NEVER commit to questionable strategies or just spazz out every now and then. in that same match, at appx 5:27, vega goes for the wall dive and kura immediately goes for the super. there’s no escaping at that point since vega tries to steer in front of him, but noguchi goes for a wall dive anyway after the fact, which is pointless because that flashkick super is practically invincible at that point.
actually, i’ll stop here, since i feel its too specific to a certain matchup and its moving away from the st vs hd remix debate. maybe we should move this to a vega/guile matchup thread. or if any good vega or guile players would like to comment, feel free.
Random sidenote: How come HDR never got a section in the Wiki? There’s bits in the ST section, but I feel there’s enough of a difference between the games to warrant a new section.
Because SRK is racist. :looney:
I’m not even close to the same situation, this is a really poor statement. Time put in /= skill.
Plus, what does this have to do with anything? Are you saying that because he has to put so much more time in, that the character is fine?
Ok, so honda vs dictator is still really in honda’s favor, it’s just not super ridiculous like it was before. It’s still really good for honda. Plus, how is that a bad thing?
So, the extra distance on the floating fierce and fireball destroying jab headbutt, super that knocks down, and tripguard jump short aren’t enough? Because you’re saying that with the changes even before the nerf to his offense he still loses worse, which I find really, really hard to believe.
I think you’re problem is that you had to play damdai.
I’m actually saying that Honda/Dictator may not be in Honda’s favor anymore. Dictator’s footsies, whether on the ground or in the air, are better than Honda’s imo. And his runaway and footspeed have always made him hard to catch.
Yes, fake fireball, which creates yet another layer of the jump-in guessing game, and roundhouse flash kick, which completely negates Honda’s cross-up, would create worse matchups for Honda when the respective holders of those moves got no nerfs. However, I will grant that perhaps simply the inclusion of fixed super (along with retained offense) might have kept the matches where they were, but who knows.
More steering on jump neutral fierce is nice, as is fireball eating headbutt, but Honda already has ways to avoid fireballs. What he needed was ways to do that safely while still posing a threat?or at least not putting himself at risk?which he simply didn’t get. I thought?and even posted saying it?that jumping short helped this problem, but it turns out that doesn’t even work.
OT: yeah that Damdai guy is pretty good:looney:
I do. I make no qualms about that.
With Guile vs. Honda, Guile is now forced to walk forward to cr. forward or cr. rh Honda out of the jab headbutt. While Guile can rack up some nice damage here, he still has to get up close and personal on Honda, giving Honda that oppurtunity he needs to score a knockdown. Once Honda gets in, its still pretty much lights out for Guile.
I main dictator, so I dunno bout this one, it still feels super rough for dictator.
I still disagree that fake fireball makes that much difference, plus you say because of strong dp, ken’s matchup got worse.
Also, it wasn’t that honda didn’t have ways to go around fireballs, is that he needed more ways.
It still works, because it forces ryu to keep perfect spacing in order to keep you out, instead of just any spacing
Man, Fei was bomb in ST and is stupid as fuck in HDR. His new rekkas are tight, and that’s it. His chicken wing kick is so stupid now. The mixup after it’s hit OR blocked is basically flame kick or throw. That’s just… retarded. I really don’t understand how sirlin could do such a thing to a character he plays. OH YAY LK CHICKEN WING GOES THROUGH FIREBALLS!1! THAT’S SO USEFUL!1 You have to do it so late that they don’t even have to react to just walk up and sweep you, or just like dp you if you’re close enough to hit with it. Let’s say you DO use it right, and you get an lk chicken kick to connect through a fireball. Wow, you get a little bit of damage and you’re awkwardly close to your opponent and you have nothing safe you can do. Flame kick will beat them trying to retaliate, but if they don’t do anything you eat a combo/knockdown/get zoned again. He completely destroyed Fei Long as a character and I will never forgive him for that. :sad: /rant
My beef with HDR is it takes a lot of the thinking out of the game, IMO. Instead of cleverly seeing how to get around your character’s flaws or your opponent’s fireballs, they just completely removed the problem with some braindead solution like a special move going around fireballs. Like, I feel like sirlin felt like he had to add a bunch of changes because if there wasn’t enough changes people wouldn’t see it as different of enough game to get into. He had the right intentions at first and then just took it overboard.
Why the fuck does dhalsim’s super have to be backwards? I guess the yoga flame change is cool and all, easier to cancel into yoga fire without worrying about yoga flame, but the super really needed to stay the same motion. It’s a lot harder to do a super out of blockstun when it starts with forward instead of back. It’s already bad enough it’s the only half circle motion super. His super changes just bother me, but it might make him more balanced… I guess. I much prefer one-frame-late “reversal” super with a good hitbox to this shit where I try to anti-air with super and just get jump kicked in the face. What good is a reversal super if it can easily be hit? More of a personal thing though, as a sim player.
I feel like changes like hawk’s dive not knocking down, fei’s chicken kick, etc. just make the game gross because you get these up close stalemates.
Chun Li, oh what did they do to Chun Li. Why the fuck would you ruin her best anti-air, neutral jump hk, by not allowing you to quickly do it from crouch? So we can have this new SBK that’s only use is a psychic fucking anti-air? I hate this game’s “throw out this move psychically and you get big damage and/or a juggle!” That’s not how street fighter 2 should be, imo.
fucking nerds. Go play street fighter or something.
Derek Daniels
YOMI… Are you serious… Please stop using that term.
Well, if Guile knows it’s coming he can anticipate and get the sweep and then back off to throwing booms again. I’m not saying you should try punishing it all the time, but just like jump neutral fierce it can be a big risk.
I don’t think fake fireball is a use-every-match move, but it can be an amazing mixup in the clutch, which is when Honda can ill-afford to be surprised. As for Ken, I had an explanation, and then realized it was moot if we’re considering high-level play, so I’ll just say that O. Ken’s dps (arc on fierce for example) added to N. Ken’s ability to do good super damage make it worse.
Finally, as for jumping short, I just don’t think it’ll be enough to keep fireball characters honest, but I suppose without long-term data to support either side it’s all just theory fighter.
Everyone who even remotely enjoys the street fighter II engine should be giving A LOT of their energy into HDR or risk having SF2 removed from most majors cause it won’t be @ evo. Then we’ll only be able to play in our basements with 3 friends like what people who to play A3 are doing now.
I dunno, the way some peeps who get massive hard-ons for ST seem to me like they would rather have the basement scenario than having a staple SF2 game in evo’s lineup. You know, these same people who insist on playing ST over HDR at local gatherings or insist it gets put in the lineup at major tourneys over HDR.
The way the OG’s are divided over this issue, and to me the OG’s represent everything about the ST community that probably averages 10 new player a year, it seems that having no SF2 @ evo is probably gonna be the course of action. People will say that its gonna be all the new games fault, but watch how hilarious its gonna be when 1 year old HDR gets dropped @ evo next year but marvel stays in. Its simply gonna be because HDR doesn’t have enough support from the same people that have been play iterations of this same game for the last 20 years.
this thread is theory fighter at it’s worst.
why? cause in practice HDR is simply better? 
actually, in regards to st vs hdremix.
for better or worse, remix will eventually remain and win out. i mean, we can look at other examples.
example 1: me personally, i preferred alpha2 the most in that series, but even today alpha 3 gets more play and it was the nail in the coffin for alpha 2
example 2: soul calibur was 1 of the better 3d games out there and it got very little play compared to the rest of the games that followed it. i remember when part 2 came out, people liked the fact that a sequel was made, but all the old school sc1 players agreed almost unanimously that sc1 was better (and gameplay/balance wise - maybe the best), but there was no looking back. i myself stopped playing sc1 for sc2, for the simple reason that the competition had moved there.
example 3: tekken tag was tekken 3 and then some, but with the tag aspect. to be sure there was a lot of bad matchups and whatnot, but nobody went back to tekken 3 after that. then after tekken tag, there was tekken 4, almost universally agreed as the worst of the series by most, but even a mediocre game such as 4, killed tekken tag, a far better game in the eyes of most fans. i remember some who just totally quit when tekken 4 came out, and some continued to play tekken tag regardless of t4’s popularity at the time. for the tag players, there was less comp to be sure, but the little there was were pretty dedicated. tekken tag had alot of great players, those that did go on to tekken4, some made a name fro themselves, but a new breed of players emerged
now hd remix. it comes to personal taste. obviously, i think a good amount of your personal feelings will be related to “how good your characters are now”. i don’t play thawk, fei, chun, and a few others etc. so obviously i won’t automatically feel as bitter as people who play them and feel they got screwed by sirlin etc etc. many of us also, from the start, will try to use “tried and true” tactics that we’ve mastered or are familiar with, hoping they still work and hoping that we dont have to invest more time relearning things. if relearning things isnt a problem for you, and you enjoy it, then obviously hdr will be much more enjoyable, and you probably play alot of other games as well. hdr, in it’s essence is close enough to st. to say that it isn’t st… i mean, come on, the difference isn’t as big as say alpha 2 and alpha 3 or cvs1 and cvs2. those are totally different games. there is a difference to be sure, but it isn’t as huge as the others. actually, the difference isnt even as big as ssf2 to st. it will take time, but there’s no denying hdr will surpass st at least here in america. st wasn’t gaining a revival or anything. people were playing it but these were the hardcore dedicated. and if people started playing it, most of those hardcore didnt like them anyway since the new blood were most likely beginners etc. on hdr, half of the people complain about “weak competition”. well there’s a reason for that, especially if alot of new people are just being introduced to the game. i dunno the numbers, but im sure there’s a good amount who are only being introduced to sf, and this might be there 1st go at it.
now st, there is a mode to play classic. every now and then i check it and there is NOBODY playing. if people do play, they must play at some very obscure time, but the fact that very little play classic mode when they can freely choose - it tells me that hdr is the main stay in the long run.
will it split the community in half?if it does, the other half that only likes st - well, they probably dont want to relearn things, and if that’s the case - their run is over. but if they really, truely like competition, they will adjust to it. otherwise they have ggpo and a small (but dedicated) circle to battle with. we can complain about bs in st vs bs in hdr, but for each point, there’s a counter point. eventually, it comes down to what people are playing (at least the majority). and that right now is hdr
^^^ I think Shockwawve bring up something interesting to talk about.
But, I want to ask a question. ST is on TONS of platforms, and I beleive that is one reason it is still played to this day. (I be could wrong, but it makes sense to me) If HDR only stays on PS3 and XBL do think it will have the staying power that ST had?
i would just like to say one thing…
How the hell can anyone say they dont like the graphics or the remixed music?!??! i would have to say that this is probably the thing i like best about the new game. play on a flat screen with 1080i and its amazing how detailed, frames that move so fast you barely have time to see them, are. i think nostalgia is getting the best of some people here.
switch the music and graphics back to the original versions and i doubt you will last long on those settings.