How can another other person trap Bison with a fireball trap exactly? How many characters have Fake Fireballs? If Ken is doing a corner fireball trap, Dictator gets out for free, on reaction. Ken does not recover from his animation fast enough to punish an opposite corner DR. If Ken doesn’t throw that second fireball, then you don’t DR, I don’t see how this is complicated really.
With Ryu, I really don’t know whether his fake fireball recovers fast enough for you to still be able to punish with a DP. Plus, doing a fake fireball from that close is really risky. It’s you essentially sitting there doing nothing, and if the Dictator expects it, you just gave up your position and just ate some free Scissors kick.
Maybe you’re missing something, since you’re asking people to meet you on GGPO. This is HDR specific - they gave Bison a few invuln frames at the beginning of his DR, meaning he can safely sail through that fireball while the shoto is sitting there with his arms extended. I don’t mean to be insulting, I’m just genuinely confused…
You know, on the subject of certain holds doing less damage…I actually ran tests on Ken’s and Balrog’s holds, and while I don’t have the results anymore, I could do them again. What I found is that the difference is pretty negligible. IIRC:
Balrog deal 100% damage with the same amount of holds, but it takes more hits from the very last hold to deal 100% damage.
Ken will sometimes need an hold to finish the opponent off, but usually kills in the exact same amount of holds (and at the exact same hit of the final hold) as in ST. So, while there is the possibility of it doing less damage, it more frequently does the same amount of damage that it did in ST.
I understand that I’m saying this with no empirical evidence, so if you guys really want, I can run the test again with more thorough results. Or, if you are intrigued or outraged by my claim, you guys can even test it yourself. My personal verdict is: This makes a slightly big difference with Balrog, and it seems to usually not even matter in Ken’s case. Sure, the range is shorter, but we don’t even know by how much? In Sirlin’s detailed change list for Ken, he states that it was reduced “by an extremely small amount.” So, I reject the notion that Ken’s close-range game was severely hampered, or even significantly de-emphasized.
I remember comparing all of the holds, and the unchanged damage ones (sim and blanka) do like chip damage more than ken’s, and I was under the impression that boxers no mash natural hold, did like twice everyone’s holds in training mode. The way I tested, was activate the hold, but recieve no mash from either side, boxers did incredible natural damage, compared to all other holds.
Looking at your test, it wouldn’t really surprise me. Sometimes it seems like the opponent is at that level where even if they tech the throw they’ll lose, but there a pixel away and so they can tech it and stay in.
As for the Devil reverse, how much does it actually affect his matchup with fireball characters, that could have normally locked him down?
In HDR:
Ryu is one of Dictator’s worst matchups.
Ken vs. Dictator I think is pretty even, though I’d like to hear Damdai/Westcyde thoughts on the matchup.
ST vids:
Aniken (Ken) vs. YuuVega (Ryu)
[media=youtube]OIR4A2C4UiQ[/media]
Taira (Dictator) vs. Mattsun (Ken)
[media=youtube]zKZTPrLF6hU&feature=related[/media]
Dude if you’re so negative toward HDR, play GGPO. Personally I don’t think the wall dive nerf hurt your game that much. You worked me pretty good.
For reals. Some of the guys that play that game get scary angry.
I think the issue here was that the first hit of the hold did less damage. At high level play you probably wont ever see the full grab run out as both players would be mashing. So it’s a bigger nerf for both of them at higher level play than just letting the throws run over and over in training mode.
But ya, I’m with you, I don’t think that was the only thing that won them matches and people should stop crying about it.
i saw the stunfest vid on youtube, there was still instances where choi was able to get a fireball corner trap going
this is more directed to NKI/dictator players and shoto users. i’m not a bison/shoto player but i’m curious on what shoto users think of this matchup vs good dictators now. i’m still under the impression that although devil reverse helps out bison, he is still at a disadvantage vs someone like ryu overall. if i recall also, NKI lost at stunfest and evo to ryu players - at evo in particular, he lost to daigo who isn’t even familiar with the changes in hdr, and was pretty much probably going on st knowledge - yet he won (convincingly i heard?). so, at “high level”, even though the fight might be harder for 1 or the other, is the outcome and END results now different?
so fireball characters have to think about mixing in another move than JUST fireballs into their corner traps on Dic?
hold the F**kin phone…
come on, Ken has loads of options if Dic is down in a corner. So does Ryu.
A lot of the changes in HDR were to make the game mid-level player friendly. Softening execution on mash moves, easier 360s (think how many low and mid level players never touch grapplers because they cant do 360s on a pad…), and giving dictator a way out of ochio loops and fireball traps.
Sirlin had to walk a fine line between opening up the game even more (getting rid of mash, which favours stick players over pad players, for example…or making reversal timing easier so newer players can do it reliably, which would have caused “its been dumbed down” tantrums from hardcore players) and leaving in elements that make the game very hard to play for new players on joypads.
He was never going to please everybody, but the number of downloads, active players, and Evo showing demonstrate he has done a pretty good job of walking that line.
Whoa, there. I do mostly play online on GGPO, not because I love ST so much more than HDR (if ST is a 10, HDR is probably a 9.5-10 for me) but because GGPO’s netcode is way better. If HDR had the smoother netcode, I’d probably practice on HDR the majority of the time to be honest. :wonder:
Anyway, I already said my piece in the Evo topic that it’s almost assured (and rightfully so) that HDR will be in place next year. But when some folks bring up stuff that don’t make sense (contradicting views and logical fallacies), I try to bring reason back into play. There’s only hype that surrounds the new MVC2 port but as you said, you can imagine how much of a storm the MVC2 community would be in if somebody attempted to rebalance the game. I think the ST community has taken HDR and its changes in pretty well in its attempt to supplant a 15-year-old, tourney-viable, undisputed end-of-series game.
Finally, I’d agree with you that I also don’t think the wall dive nerf hurt claw that much. But that in turn means the wall dive loop wasn’t a huge deal in ST either (besides riling the other player up with cheesiness). Unfortunately, a lot of players have a hard time coming to terms with that conclusion. Thankfully, claw is at his core a relatively unchanged character (in terms of the same algorithmic process and guessing game situations) so I can play either version to improve. As for online play, we both know it’s just practice; I’ll have to play you offline (hopefully next Evo) to really determine anything meaningful.
Wow, some really great discussions going on in this thread.
Honestly, I don’t think that ST Remix has divided the ST community. I think that most ST fans who prefer Classic ST will still play Remix, primarily because it’s the Tournament standard right now. Also, I believe, like a previous poster mentioned, that most Classic ST fans who don’t like Remix, reside in locations where the Arcade ST scene is still strong, but the bulk of Remix fans comes from ex-Classic fans and new, casual players. I think that most Classic ST fans divide their time between Classic at the arcades/GGPO and Remix online. I could be wrong, but I think there’s some truth to this.
Obviously there are still Classic die hards who won’t touch Remix with a 10 ft pole, but I believe the majority of OGs don’t mind the changes in Remix. Personally, I prefer Remix but Classic is still my favorite before other fighters like Alpha, III, or even HF.
I think this thread asks Classic fans the question “What is wrong with Remix?”. I would like to ask them the question “What is wrong with Remix and how would you change it if you could?” I think engaging Classic fans to come up with solutions for their gripes with Remix would turn into a helpful guide if Remix is ever re-rebalanced.
I played a lot of GGPO before HDR came out, and I played GGPO the past two nights.
Doesn’t seem that much better to me, if it is at all.
In fact, there are times when GGPO will freeze cold, and hang for a few seconds. Sometimes, it won’t even resume, and my opponent and I will have to restart.
