fei got a shafted chicken wing and flame kick in return for a longer reaching rekka.
if you notice, Jason Wilson doesnt claim ANY match for fei in VST worse than 6.5-3.5 (Honda) on the same chart that Jumpsuit is saying matches are 9-1
Realistically, those matches arent 9-1 or even 8-2.
Yes, actually that would be very accurate to say. The measurable quality of a character in a fighting game is how they perform relative to the rest of the cast. Nerfing one character brings another up, because that character now has at least one more favorable matchup. If you nerfed Chun and Yun in 3S, Necro’s overall standing would improve at least that little bit (assuming no other changes were made), because now the two most dominant characters were no longer as big of a threat to him. By the same logic, if you buffed everybody in the next iteration considerably except for Chun and Yun, their standings would drop, and they would become “worse” (in terms of less functionally useful), despite no changes being made to them at all.
I wholeheartedly agree with REB’s excellent post.
I also worry that Evo’s nonsense about Fei somehow being weaker in HDR than in ST (he’s really not) is being repeated so often that people will begin to think it’s true.
I prefer HDR because it balances the gameplay more.
Of course characters have changed, some have been made stronger or weaker, this needed to happen to allow the game to be more even.
3S bores me because most of the finals are chun, yun and ken. I’d much rather watch finals of HDR where the cast is more varied allowing for players to use their matchup knowledge more carefully.
and p.s fake fireball is brilliant in a tense ending to a round.
Both games are fine to me.
Sim is cheaper in vanilla st so I like that version better. Lol.
hdr has reversal super which is pretty damn nice.
I honestly think the st community is way too damn anal. Reminds me of the alpha 3 scene and that game died due to us being anal (partially).
I wrote a LONG post about this back in the day. That got into very specifc information. I am trying to find it, to re-post it on page one.
I stated MONTHS ago that it will divide the community. Any player could see that coming. Before the game came out that was my biggest fear about “remixing” the game. The ST community was core and very OG. You shouldn’t mess with it, or leave the “remxing” to one person. That was a BIG MISTAKE. There was no power check. The game became the vison of one man, and the few who agreed with his changes.
Anyway, to sum it up, I think I will go with Joe Zazza’s simple explination for HDR.
“It makes it easier [for less skilled players] to win.”
Everything (other than stroed ochio) that took skill to exicute OR escape was systematically removed.
Now be that as it may, I have had A LOT of fun playing remix. It is a good game, and has expanded the cast for more casual play. It has wholes and flaws that I feel are worse than the wholes and flaws in ST, but the core game is still there.
I personally, like ST more.
Whether it was one guy or a team of 50, “OG” players were going to refuse to accept changes. It’s just been too long for lots of people to accept a new revision.
Sorry man, that’s just bunk. Tick throw reversals and actual reversals are still as hard to do as ever (except for what, two characters with slightly reduced ranges?)
HDR is easier for new players to pick up, but HDR is still fucking brutal on the player with less skills.
Lemme put it this way - do you think some no-name chucklefuck is going to place at EVO, or will it probably end up being the same names from ST top 8s?
I’d go further (as I’ve claimed from the very beginning) to say that there’s zero use for the fake wall dive. It’s an unnecessary addition that also offers no help in any situation that I’ve seen. Any good player will wait to see what’s coming in response and since the fake dive falls so slowly, you have to commit early or get nailed with an anti-air anyway. The only uses are against weaker comp who can’t react fast, in online play where players have to preemptively guess, and to confuse ST Ken players who are wired into thinking a wall dive is a free hit. None of these are advantages at higher levels of play so you’re basically left with a novelty move.
However, I do understand Sirlin’s concept of thinking that claw would be too weak without his wall dive loop and then having to continually dumb down the fake to prevent runaway until it became useless. People have to remember that the wall dive was one of the 2 most complained about moves in the game and then consider how much worse N.Sagat was in ST primarily because of a few more frames on the tiger shot recovery.
Anyway, I can’t speak for his other matches but Fei Long is definitely weaker against claw in HDR since he doesn’t have a reliable corner trap anymore. His longer range rekka ken doesn’t help him in this matchup more than the added recovery on his other specials hurts him.
Most people will play either game so it’s not really a big deal. I give credit to Sirlin that besides Gouki, none of the game changes resulted in any character becoming horrible overpowered (since it’s always too much power that ruins a game’s balance). And players are generally performing about the same regardless of version and whether their character was buffed/nerfed.
I agree completely. I believe the ideal for every match is that each characters has a specific set of goals they wish to accomplish using the various tools in their arsenal. Whoever implements their will and their game the best will be victorious. This is most frequently decided by the players with better yomi skills.
HDR has improved most the bad matches to some extent, although admittedly, it has worsened some. Overall though, the game seems much more balanced. Additonally, alot of the weird stuff about ST ( Rog’s jab and fierce, but not strong headbutts go through fireballs amon other things) got cleaned up. There’s alot more I wish I had mroe time to go into detail about, but it really is a more balanced and fun game.
as a ryu player, and hating the ryu vs vega matchup, i can say that i think the fake dive sucks. when i guess right that a dive is coming, throw a fierce srk, and the vega does the fake…it takes away the hit i would have gotten and makes the match that much more difficult. granted it doesnt help the vega player score any kind of hit since hes usually too far away to do anything…but as a ryu player, i think i should be rewarded with making the correct move. its a shame that vega has another move that keeps him away.
this is true…but isnt the game more enjoyable having more people to play against, and using characters they probably wouldnt have used in the first place?
i consider myself new to the game, and one of my biggest complaints about VST was the random input window for DP’s. SOOO glad thats gone.
i would imagine theres alot more gief and hawk players now that the SPD inputs are simplified. i certainly come across alot more than i would have expected to… people that couldnt land SPD’s and didnt want to take the time to master it would move on to easier characters. simplified controls bring new life to old players me thinks.
i find the wall dive useful in some situations. versus deejay and shotos, especially if last hit to either player will kill, the wall dive is a legit bait/escape. to say that there is ZERO use, then this move would NEVER catch at all and i’ve seen it catch. against the highest level comp. i dunno, i think it would still catch. i think i’ve seen a match on youtube where noguchi (probably top 2 claw from japn, bait kurahashi to flashkick (probably best guile) in st). and this is in st where there was no wall dive cancel. how much more useful would that tactic work for noguchi if there was a cancel?
matter of fact:
[media=youtube]qdRx1kynPHI[/media]
at appx 6:07, a wall dive cancel would have definitely helped claw
at appx 6:18, claw was able to bait a super flashkick, what more if wall dive cancel was in effect? granted claw was/and still is strong vs guile, the bait situation can be used vs any character that has to commit to some anti air move.
i agree, over time, i see this move becoming much stronger for ryu. in the other games where ryu had it, i think air block was present, so it didn’t really play much of a factor. with no airblocking, i can see this catching alot of people into committing to jump in attacks and other moves.
i dont see how giga can claim that HDR makes it easier for “less skilled” players to win when the core game is still exactly the same. you cant teach a new school player footsies and that is what this game is mostly about. theyll still get owned for free anyways. HDR has exactly the same players winning and placing just like regular st.
I personally think that “skill” (i.e technical ability, execution) is a pretty lame judge of how good someone is. Sure, you have to have some level of precision and ability to pull off some good stuff, but I think that yomi should be more important. This is a big reason I play Street Fighter instead of, say, Starcraft. 
I think it’s an artificial barrier; if you’re able to determine what’s effective and what isn’t, and you’re able to outsmart your opponents all the time, it’s obnoxious to be held back because you can’t say, do a V-Ism combo (also a big reason why I’m not playing A3!).
Anyways, I’ll join in. I don’t know much about STHD, I don’t play other characters besides Chun-Li seriously, so I can’t comment much. I will say that I feel STHD makes more of the cast competitive (maybe everyone?). But, the changes to Chun-Li really bother me:
1. Lightning Legs: Making them more vulnerable was a weird idea. Blanka’s electricity isn’t more susceptible to attack? Sure, Honda’s HHS got nerfed, but it was used as an offensive tool; for crying out loud, he moves forward as he does it! It was devastating for characters not to have an answer to that! All it does for Chun is allow her to get hit with alarming frequency by more moves, particularly Dic’s Psycho Crusher and Scissor Kicks. Nerf the damage, I don’t care. Why nerf the priority?
2. Ground SBK: I dunno…I have to say that SBK wasn’t really useful for much more than getting out of crossups. Now, you can escape a crossup, but it’s not very safe. Sure, anyone with a fireball could punish you before, but you could put enough distance between you and your opponent first that it wasn’t too devastating.
Also, the Mk and Hk versions are, for sure, unsafe on hit (and of course, block) unless you hit your opponent at max range. Lk might be safe on hit, I’ve never had anyone try to punish it, but maybe I oughtta find out soon.
Another peculiar thing: The horizontal distance traveled does not go up in proportion to the strength of kick you use. In other words, most moves that go forward have the weak attack go the shortest distance and the hard attack go the longest distance. But, for SBK, instead of the usual Lk, Mk, Hk, the distances traveled from shortest to longest are actually Mk, Lk, Hk. Seriously, if you don’t believe me, go look. I tested this a million times to make sure I wasn’t crazy.
Instead of all this, why not just have the SBK have throw invulnerability on startup? At least then, she’d have some reasonable way out of tick throw loops besides “pray to God they didn’t get a safe jump”.
2. Air SBK: This to me, is the worst change. ST Chun’s Air SBK was made in such a way that if you executed it high enough off the ground, the animation would be over before you hit the ground. If you do this, Chun will supersede her landing animation, allowing you to block right away. STHD Chun’s animation includes her descent, meaning that she always has that landing animation. This was very important in matches against Shotos and Sagat, because there was very little she could do in the corner except build meter and use the threat of her super to get out.
Not to mention, the floaty property makes it virtually useless against Sagat. Sure, Shotos can’t usually punish it that bad, but the only way to safely execute this against Sagat is to do the Air SBK way high up, so that High Tiger Shots won’t hit it. See how safe you are when you do it that high in the corner.
Finally…no minimum height requirement. I can’t tell you how many matches I’ve completely blown for trying to zone with C.Mk, then trying to anti-air with any jump kick. Down+Up charge? Okay, cool. No minimum height requirement? This makes Chun feel very shaky.
3. Neckbreaker: I’m on the fence about this one. It didn’t even cross up a lot of characters in ST, but it did hit low. Now, it no longer seems to cross up OR hit low, which is fine…but it’s also a lot easier to reverse, which is kind of lame for such a long, telegraphed move. I would need to play more players that can handle this consistently before making an opinion, but I don’t think this was that bad of a change.
4. Super: I’m actually a big fan of the damage nerf, to be honest.
…What bothers me is the way in which the damaged was nerfed. There’s three ways, actually:
Notable exceptions:
Notable exceptions:
Now HERE’S what gets me. I don’t care that the super got a damage reduction. What bothers me is that there are characters like Guile, Sim, Sagat and Fei, who can potentially be hit by only 4/6 hits (it’s very hard to upkick them after that, too, so you’re potentially missing 1/3 of your damage here), or characters like Blanka and Honda, who prove difficult to tag with Upkicks midscreen.
Here’s something funny: doing the super against Chun - the only character in which all hits of the super still land - does the same amount of damage as the STHD-standard five hits + one upkicks. So, why not just remove the ability to juggle? The new juggle property of the super just makes it so that it’s plausible to miss out on damage with your super. Chun deserved a damage nerf, but that’s kind of ridiculous, I think.
And even still, I feel dumb for saying all this, because Chun is still really good. I just…I really DON’T get a lot of these changes, is all I’m saying. It makes Chun a lot harder to play, but not in a good way, imo.
This 100%.
And i can’t even understand the reasoning for slowing it down.
How does one runaway in a game with edges ?
I mean sure if there’s 10 sec left on the clock but in general.
Theoryfighter but since everyone can hit walldives to opposite screen out of the air and there is always an edge to your own wall.
How does this runaway occur ?
Can anyone that took part in the HDR balance sessions with Sirlin expand on it ?
Alright, to anyone who thinks that Fei is worse, overall he is not. The only thing he lost was the (airtight and difficult to escape) chicken wing trap and the ability to combo off of it reliably. In top level play, connecting a chicken wing combo hardly ever applies. Also the fact that the motion is so difficult and long to execute, makes it difficult to crank out reliably and on the fly when you most need it. I’ve played Fei since he came out in super SF2, and I still miss the standing chicken wing (not buffered from a move) all the time.
Here’s what he gained in HDR:
1-Fei gained longer rekkas which are huge when playing footsies
2-A flame kick that juggles which allows you to piano your reversals with all 3 kicks
3-An invincible short chicken wing that’s a fireball motion that consistent to execute and allows you to blow thru fireballs and attacks at mid and close range
4-A longer range super that connects more reliably, flies thru fireballs (including block combos, which is important), and is safer on block
5-You can juggle the flame kick off of the chicken wing. This is a nice little bonus as you can often quickly react (with the new easy motion) to a backwards jump in the corner and catch them out of the air with a 4 hit chicken to wing flame kick combo. It applies enough to be mentioned, and does really nice damage.
-wes
I appreciate the well thought out response. :tup:
It’s nice that a few of the Japanese players are playing this game, but it’s not like it’s getting the same penetration among the top ST players as AE got, for example. Obviously, that’s because AE is an arcade game too and HDR is not. It’s almost like having KOF 98 UM console only instead of both console and arcade. Sure, there is a good chance that it is ‘better’ than original 98 and enough people out there will believe it too, but you can’t know for sure if the majority of the best players aren’t playing it hardbody.
re: T. Hawk - the whole point of that character is an all or nothing gamble. Because there are so many ways now to get out of the 360, there is less of a reward to get in and even with his ‘upgrades’, it’s still hard as shit to get in on a good player. Where is the reward for forcing someone to make a mistake? And it’s not like everyone is killing you as soon as they get in. The 360 loop still requires some execution. The whiff is unnecessary IMO, and greatly detracts from his game. And it’s not like Hawk was a great and easy to use character in ST as it was. As good of an example as there is of a change that was not thought out correctly.
It’s not like I won’t play this game because it’s different than ST. There were plenty of quality changes that I agree with. The point is that not all of the changes made were for the better. Any time a game becomes arguably less fun at a high level is where something went wrong and that’s what happens when you mess with some things that worked for certain characters/matchups for the last 15 years. I wonder why it’s usually the top players that are bagging on this game and not usually the guys that aren’t already known in the ST community? Like Art says, the established top players are still winning and will continue to win despite the changes, since the core is still there. I’m not a top player by any means but I get the feeling that I would do better in this game simply because of the added leniency to make up for mistakes. ST is more disciplined in a lot of areas, so to speak and that’s why I’d still prefer to play ST over HDR. It’s more fun to me in that respect.
Good point. However, I don’t think it is about “having the same number of players winning.”
It about the game itself.
The PROBLEM with HDR is that it helps people get out of things that they never should have been stupid enough to get caught in from the beginning.
There are many situations in life where the best way to get out of a situation is to not get into it. In street fighter, this is seen in a variety game play strategies. Characters like Honda were stated to need “help” getting out fireball traps. That is a scrub approach, why not just work your ass off not to get into a fireball trap in the one in the first place.
As Sim player in ST, I work my ass to not get knocked down by claw. I need to to avoid his wall dive mix up. Conversely Claw has to work to avoid Sim’s throws, other wise he’ll lose a ton of damage getting caught in throw mix ups.
Kusomundo (spelling?) Honda made to the top 8 last year at EVO with Honda. He lost not because the fire fireball traps were easy and too powerfully, he was out played by Alex and John. Who doesn’t lose to Alex and John? They are great players. If he made to the top 8 with Honda, it means he had to beat A LOT of other fireball characters to get there. So, fire ball traps aren’t that brain dead easy.
If you can’t get out of a situation or mix up, the answer is simple. Don’t get caught in them during the next round. Every character has some TOD or some crazy mix up in the game. You always have to work to avoid something. HDR just made it easier for those who weren’t skilled enough to not get caught by a situation or strategy to now more easily get out of them.
Its like having a autoblock… just not as bad. 
Lasty, I konw this is about a personal opinion, and should be taken in good fun. The community is divided for a reason, the game is FUN and the game has a lot to offer. If HDR blew goats, no one would even debate it over ST. If it was tuned up a bit more, eveerybody (well most) would move on to it and not look back. HDR is just perfectly balanced enough bewteen these two points, that this debate will rage on pontlessly for years.
And at least for that, we can thank Sirlin… LOL :lol: :highfive:
Exactly. I used to play World of Warcraft back in the day (God help me) and I finally left the game because I realized that what seperated most players on the battlefield was not skill, but their weapons armor, and level. These three things could only be obtained by playing longer. Similarly, execution skills can only be obtained by practicing longer or maybe your just born with it. In the end, its still an artificial barrier the means very little. I’m glad its been broken down. If players rely on their execution skill to seperate them from scrubs, they can’t be that good in the first place.
Except for Tiger woods, Maywether, Tomlinson, or Wade, Bryant, or any other professional athlete. Many professional sport/ games have levels of execution skill that separate them best of the best from the pack.
I would argue that they have just as braod of a knowledge base about thier game versus thier peers, but their execution skills elevate them to the demi-god tier.
Thanks for putting that in better terms than I was able to. Kusumondo @ Evo is actually a poor example cuz his best matches were not visible to the majority of people. I was in his pool last year and I saw him rip through more than a few great players (I think he at least beat Spence and/or Shirts, along with a couple more). Dude is godlike for sure but people didn’t see it. One of the better examples of applying your will in a traditionally losing matchup is any of the various Shogatsu O. Honda videos that are out there. Dude is a killer and you can tell he puts the fear in a lot of people, many of whom are top shoto players…