Did you just say sirlin is not a good player?
:looney: She’s the fucking same without (most of) the bullshit. SBK was pretty useless in ST anyway…
Someone much more thorough than I am is going to come along and spell out specifically why, but Chun Li is definitely not the same in HDR. I wouldn’t say she’s “useless” as others have said, but she’s definitely one of the ones who suffer from some of the oddball changes in HDR.
Well i, myself i’m fairly new to ST i have spent my life playing Hyper and Champ Ed. Street fighter and really started to play ST on GGPO last year for like 5 Months or so befor STHD came out and, i switch to that and never looked back i think for my own skae that HDR is better then VST because
Honda O’ Throw Trap
Vega Dive Knock down (for know reason)
Sagat-- dont really have to say anything about him well all know
balrog - dont really like his nerf’s but it makes him a lot more manageable
fei - glad they changd him he really need the chickwing to go thru thing (Good Move)
So in the year or so that i have been playing ST/HDR i find that the changes made tot he game gives eveybody a chance to be a tournament winning Character.
Yeah, definitely going to have to take exception to Sirlin not being a good player. Multiple top 8 finishes at Evo would certainly put him up there.
But I think he may have gotten a bit caught up in showing off what a genius he is, what with some of these random changes to the game.
My thoughts on Remix have been written in the other threads linked here, but I’ll add some more here. Generally, my view is that they made too many unnecessary changes to upper-mid characters and were actually too conservative when it came to the lower tier. I know a lot of people who wanted to play Cammy or Blanka or Fei-Long or a grappler, and were excited to see what Remix would do for them; after the game came out, most of them were disappointed at how weak they still were for the most part.
Another thing I noticed is that a number of the changes seemed to be based on popular American opinions that don’t hold true at the highest level. Most notable is the nerf to Cammy’s j.strong, which was done to help out Dhalsim. In reality, Sim still had ways around that move (e.g. jump back fierce) and solidly beat Cammy in ST, so this nerf wasn’t needed at all and hurt Cammy in other matchups to boot.
I actually don’t mind the easier motions, or the fake fireball (although in retrospect, I think they should have given it to Ken instead), or even the tiger knee juggles, but the new brain-dead Cammy & Fei and Bison having a reversal are poor decisions.
And studtrooper, spinning bird kick was definitely NOT useless in ST. Ground version was a decent reversal on occasion, and the air one was her best meter builder and thus a key move vs. the likes of shotos & Sagat. Remix ruined both of those, which is a bit much to tack on along with the huge super nerf.
Brain-dead Cammy and Fei? Really? Bison’s DR reversal isn’t really that big of deal IMO.
I still see people using it for meter building and I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone use N. Chun SBK as a reversal (it had partial invincibility for O.Chun). Sure, the new parabolic arc is dumb, but from what I can see she can still be played in pretty much the same manner. The way I see it, you Chun players should thank Sirlin for keeping the stored super (and double thank him for taking Honda’s away).
Fei being easy…man he got nerfed like bitch so if anything he has a more deep learning curve then before.
Evo, I don’t know if I can believe anything you say.
You post wrong ideas everywhere. He didn’t get nerfed, I don’t uderstand why you would even say that.
Do you even play fei? Next you’ll be saying I have no idea what I’m talking about because I say O.Hawk is better
^^^^^^^
Ya infact FEI is waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better then VST
Hold on there son, let me explain to you the reality of the situation. Fei’s CW were nerfed along with his flame kick…check the fei thread for more info as to why he was nerfed. It isn’t only my opinion however, ask any good fei player and they will tell u the samething. When u got a guy like jumpsuit saying he got worst and that sirlin made a mistake…u know something is up. I still use fei regardless but it doesn’t change the fact that he became worst in this iteration.
When u got a guy like Jumpsuit saying “I can deal with all the changes done to fei except his flame kick.”, the actual last thing he posted here on the topic…u know something is up when someone else makes 4356463 posts about those same changes.
SF2 is a game of matchups, in ST, Jumpsuit (according to nohoho’s blog), gave Fei four 1-9 matchups (OS,BX,DH,EH), and two 2-8 matchups (CL,GU), in a scene where you are going to have to beat OS,BX,DH,CL a lot to win anything. Even if those matchups still suck and are all 3-7, fei is still better.
Considering that, are you still claiming that Fei is worse in the SFHD scene? Is that possible? If you want to say something like you don’t think he was changed enough… ok that’s an opinion, but to say that he is actually worse competitively is going to take some explaining.
Please note: The following comes from a scrub who has competed in tournaments only to get swiped by legends like Arturo Sanchez, Nohoho, Chris Doyle, Damdai, Justin Wong. Also note I am slightly biased towards Vanilla ST as I never had much hope for a remixed version of the game.
Things I think about as I try to remain objective on this topic:
Guile’s Roundhouse Flashkick -
While not broken or messed up in anyway, I find it weird. Yeah, it helps Guile a lot. I dig how he has an answer to Claw now. I also like how it isn’t safe on block and hops over crouching characters. I really liked this move a lot when I first got the game, but now I can’t sleep well at night. I don’t like how it in someways can act as a replacement for Sonic Boom. What do I mean? Sonic Booms move horizontally and Flashkicks move vertically. Now the RH Flashkick does both. It seems very odd in context to Guile’s game - he is a wall made to punish anyone that comes close to him. The opposing player finds wholes and gets in. Yet Sirlin said one of the distinguishing factors of O.Sagat in the original ST was that he kept people away AND when those players got in, they STILL “weren’t in.” This same case that was worked on balancing seems similar to Remix Guile but not as bad. At least for me, a scrub mind you, this move has replaced the backfist in almost every way - Guile no longer has to take the risk to walk forward (lose charge) and backfist a projectile character before using a fireball. Feel free to disagree as I am not well learned in all of Remix, but this is what I have experienced.
Honda Headbutt -
Not NEARLY as bad as everyone says, but still wonky. Like Guile’s RH Flashkick, it helps Honda a lot and isn’t “broken” in any sense. And without extrapolating the same argument above (Guile doesn’t feel like Guile, Honda doesn’t feel like Honda, etc) I definitely think there is something wrong with a move that lets you move forward a significant distance while being invincible. Yes, Boxer has the same trait, but it moves in an arc upward more than forward and the distance on a Jab is far less than a headbutt. Is this move unbeatable? No. It gives Honda an awesome tool against fireball characters, but it is kind of a middle finger to the Fireball-based design of ST. I feel players who played ST for ages (not me) might feel like their methods around fireballs were for nothing as the jab headbutt does everything for them (with some strategy, obviously). I don’t like using the word “fun” as no one can agree what it is in context to video games, but I think the argument can be made that using headbutt to penetrate fireball traps is less fun than using Jump Fierce + > . A good friend David Doyle once told me that he believed “learning = fun;” there is no learning involved in using the headbutt imo.
Fake Moves (Ryu, Dic, Claw) -
Ryu’s fake fireball seems silly. When it was the first announced change for Remix, I immediately plugged in SFA2 to check out some pseudo strategies using the QCF+1P move. I enjoyed it because you couldn’t cancel any moves into another with it (not that I know of, please correct me if I am an ignorant douche) and Ryu made a “Ha!” sound with it (yes, I am aware that in tournament settings you can’t hear it anyway). You had to commit to the fake, to the psyche out. In that respect, it seemed useful in only DIRE circumstances, which seemed like a fantastic addition to me - any new move that seems like it might get used a lot over the older ones is stinky in my eyes. When Remix came out, it seemed like a godly move - everyone was getting thrown off by it. After time everyone got wise to it and now no one in my group of players seems to use it ever. A silly addition for something that no one will use.
Dic’s fake slide is cool as all hell and I love it to death when I use it. I also hate it when it is used on me. I love it because when I use it I get a lot of free throws from it. When I am the recipient, I think “Damn you, you pulled a dirty trick on me!” How can you fake a slide? I have no idea how to explain why this hurts Remix or doesn’t - it is just weird.
Vega having a cancel off his wall dive seems mighty ridiculous to me. The one weakness to the walldive was that you had to commit to it - you couldn’t escape. Now you can reconsider. I don’t know, I am not a claw player, but I just don’t think this was necessary at all.
New Motion SPD Whiffs -
Dumb. Defeats the whole purpose of easier inputs. Not intentional obviously, but still. Unacceptable.
Fei’s Short Chicken Wing -
I have never been a Fei Long player. I dunno how to use him effectively. But I talked to James Chen about some changes in Remix and he talked about (I hope I am paraphrasing correctly, please correct me if otherwise James) Fei not playing like Fei. I didn’t understand completely at first, but he stated that Fei became a character revolved completely around his Chicken Wing now. The Short version goes over fireballs and is quick. His rekkas and his flame kick seem to take a backseat. I tried using Remix Fei before and I had no luck, but upon hearing this theory I started to rely more on Chicken Wing. I started winning more. A lot. A really lot. And I have no idea how to play as Fei. Is Fei better? It seems so, but I can’t judge it accurately. Is he less fun? I don’t really know. Instead of being based on rekkas he is based on wings. Which one is more fun, groundbased or air attacks? My bias - ground.
Akuma -
What a shame.
Ochio Throw -
I think it is cool that it is still in the game. But why the Ochio and Jab Headbutt? Seems a bit much.
Ken’s Strong Shoryu -
I could be wrong but after studying the hitboxes it seems his shoryu is more invulnerable than even O.Ken’s or Super Ken’s. I could be wrong, so call my bullshit if you think necessary. It isn’t even a bad thing, so don’t consider this a criticism. Just weird it has more invulnerability than Jab.
O. Characters -
I have said from the beginning of the project we should keep the Original styles. It gave way to OG gamers to compete with newschool types. Only a few people agree with me (Dark Gaiden and Vintage being the leaders). Can’t we learn to love both? Sure, more work to balance 32 characters, but I’d like it.
Anyway, those are my most important points of contention. Sorry for the long post.
So having a slower, less effective CW along with a nerfed flame kick is not enough ur opinion to justify him as being worst. The match-up’s improving is not because fei improved but because his opponents got worst. Therefore my original assertion was accurate. If SF3 was to recieve another iteration, and let’s say chun and yun where brought down to Necro’s level…would it be fair to assume necro is"better"then in 3s because the match-ups are a lot more even now?
Iapetus: It’s a gimmick that only works at close quarters. It can’t cover much ground meaning it is usless agaisnt good zoning characters hence why Fei is still low tier.
You aren’t saying that. You’re saying fei got worse, not remained unchanged.
Also, james chen says that chicken wing is too good, and that is all fei long does now. You say it’s worthless, so which is it?
I’m saying he has got worst and the only reason he has improved in the matches is because everyone else got lowered. CW’s are from being too good considering anyone with good zoning can easily sweep or DPd them on reaction. They are slower and less effective then before, IMO almost uesless.
But a really good player thinks the opposite.
Why would he think that?
I mean, they are pretty safe on block, one of them goes through fireballs, if you catch them in the air you can juggle with flame kick for good damage, and you can follow up with a pretty safe flame kick afterwards. I odn’t understand how they can be almost useless.
Also, explain how his better rekkas and better super make him worse
Iapetus: To me your post somehow proves that most VST players just don’t like the new/different flow/feeling of the characters and thus abandon it. Some of your points are very true and some are a little off (I saw fake FBs being used by some good players on tournaments for example). Very good post overall btw!
@Evo: I am by no means a Fei pro, but from what I’ve seen I simply cannot see what you’re talking about. Fei didn’t got worse and in addition his matchups improved. I dunno if this is because of others getting worse or he gettin’ better but who cares? He’s just more competetive.
i think it’s too soon for people to hate on hdremix. st has been around for a long time. i can still remember when st was released, to some extent i preferred hyper sf more, but as time passed, st became the preferred game, mainly because of the added features (fast speed-although hyper was pretty fast, new moves, 4 new chars, and supers). granted, the things that were added in hdremix seem minor to me-as opposed to say… totally revamping the chars (st to hdremix changes…it’s not as drastic as say the changes from old guile to new guile, or old ken to new ken, etc), i think people are just complaining because the tactics that they are familiar with are different or no longer as strong.
check it out: for example, how can you complain really if you used new sagat in st and are now using sagat in hdremix? granted he isn’t as strong as old sagat, but there’s a likelihood now that a tournament wont be totally dominated by o.sagat alone and that more variety will be present- that alone, should be enough to like this game or at least give it a chance. also, hdremix sagat is more improved than his st new sagat version, but not overpowered like o.sagat.
a majority of the old characters in st weren’t even used much (except maybe old sagat). even when i look thru youtube etc, i barely see old characters used
what exactly is the hate about? graphically, i still prefer the old sprites in st though, and the stages were graphically better in st imo (specifically balrog’s and deejay’s stages looked better to me in st than in hdremix- but that’s just personal taste).
there are still weak and strong characters in hdremix, but i’d say a good amount of the characters have improved in some respects (or at least are more competitive) and it gives them better chances of winning in certain matchups. more of a balance imo
as far as the ease of controls. it’s a double edge sword, because you want people to play and give hdremix a shot, but obviously it takes “less skill” pulling off certain moves now. for example:
2 similarly skilled players who have never played st or hd remix start playing fei long. it’s safe to say the new player to hdremix would win more and find hdremix more enjoyable, than say the new fei player in st (the fact that moves alone are easier to pull off almost makes this “more enjoyable” for the novice). frustration alone from not being able to pull of moves can cause someone to pass on X character, or the game in general. i know these days, i tend to try some of the characters i didn’t used to use for the simple fact that the motions are easier to pull off.
btw, regarding ryu fake fireball, i find this to be a good addition for ryu personally and you can’t really compare it to ryu’s fake fireball from the alpha games. the fact that there is no airblock, makes this a legit fake that can force the enemy into making mistakes. i’ve seen this used by good players quite effectively.
give it time, i think remix will be embraced moreso. it took awhile for 3s to be accepted back then. and actually, hyper is still considered by some to be a better game than st and… well, you get the point. too soon to make a final judgment on st vs hdremix debate
Wow, there’s a lot in this thread that I want to comment on.
- As far as I know, Honda vs Guile is 7-3 in ST and 6-4 in HDR. Honda/Guile majors feel free to correct me on that, as I don’t play either of them. Perhaps that’s not the best of examples for you to have chosen, but regardless, the balance seems better in HDR.
- I don’t understand all the complaints about “pointless” changes (and the MGU thing and Chun SBK seem to be the only 2). If it doesn’t matter, why do you care? Is it actively making the game worse? (Chun’s SBK might be) Is it making the game worse than the pointless moves in ST, like Chun’s df+mk and Zangief’s awful hop?
- Would you say the new glitches are more relevent than ST’s reversal-super glitches? This is an honest question.
- Obvious troll bait aside, I’ve been told that said good players sometimes recommended different things, so he was going to end up ignoring good players regardless of what he did.
There are some major barriers in getting to the japanese crowd. The first is that their scene is heavily arcade based. Many of their players are strictly arcade players. Another problem is that Capcom Japan mysteriously decided not to release it there (which makes no sense to me, since it seems like free money), so it’s difficult for the players there to play, since they need American XBL accounts. All that said, there is a small cult following, and there are some strong japanese players online (like Haru Tejyo).
There are some matches of HDR on Niconicodouga, a relatively popular japanese videohosting site. Here is a set, linked through a redirector, since many of you are unlikely to have accounts:
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/video/niconico/sm5543697
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/video/niconico/sm5543961
(For those of you unaccustomed to this video interface, you can disable onscreen comments with the icon to the right of the volume control.)
THawk has a whiff because he has an inescapable, repeatable corner trap in ST. That doesn’t seem like it “doesn’t need to be there,” so I’m not sure what you mean.
I’m confused by a lot of your comments. I’ll go over them individually, I guess.
RH Flash Kick: I’m no Guile player, so maybe I’m missing something critical here, but this has massive whiff recovery, so I don’t understand how it replaces the backfist.
Jab Headbutt: I’m not sure what you mean, here. Jab headbutt has huge recovery on whiff, so you can’t just throw it out. I’m pretty sure it’s punishable by everyone if used at fullscreen, and requires prediction at pointblank. I still see Honda players using the jumping fierce float, it’s just different. Honda had some pretty [media=youtube]X671jkoTA6k]awful [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGV2ufeQFE0[/media] vs fireball characters in ST, so giving him a better shot seems good.
Fake Moves: I think you are greatly undervaluing the fake fireball. I’ve read that Alex Wolfe called it the best move in the entire game and said it was way too good.
I agree on the fake slide. It feels right at home with Dic’s other shenanigans. 
I’m not sure you appreciate how much recovery Claw’s dive-cancel has. It’s so substantial that uses for it are incredibly limited. He still needs to commit to it, since he is vulnerable for so long, and doesn’t even have his claws out to protect himself, but it has some narrow applications.
Fei Long: “Everyone” seems to think he is worse in this version, but you are saying that you were winning a lot with him. Doesn’t that imply he is better? You said you have never been a Fei Long player. With respect, I propose for your consideration that this may cause you to overlook some of his buffs, like the incredibly extended range on his super.
See my Fei Long bit above. As for how characters become better, every character is judged by the set of characters they belong to. If, say, Magneto was randomly added to the HDR cast, it seems pretty obvious to me that everyone else would be worse, because we judge how playable a character is based on its competition, and everyone would just play Magneto.
Personally, my favourite part of HDR is that I can actually play Zangief. Additionally, I main Claw and his bullshit in ST is so absurd that sometimes it feels like a round will end before I’ve really had much of a chance to play.