How about walk-up Typhoon, DP, CR.Roundhouse, St.Roundhouse, Jump-in, another Dive, or a walk-up 720? There are a number of options available and I’ve beaten solid players doing them. Instead of saying the damn move is a pile of shit, utilize it. Its pretty obvious the move doesn’t suck otherwise nobody would be using Hawk.
Can you name like a list of 10 DECENT hawk players? You, Me, Kuroppi, and jedi is all I can think of off the top of my head. News Flash man - NO one plays Hawk.
You’re kinda missing my point. Hawk has those options from just plain old WALKING up. Why was taking away one of his like only options to knock down a GOOD thing?
Walk up typhoon - Thats cool, you could do this before without utilizing the new dive. Like, this isnt a huge new WOAH thing that happened because of the new dive. Hawk could always do this. He could ALWAYS do this from the same range the dive leaves him at. This is nothing new.
DP - Whiffs against almost EVERY crouching normal in the game. This is not a new thing. You have to be A LOT closer than where the new dive leaves you to utilize the SHIT LET ME GUESS BETWEEN 360 AND DP mixup that everyone seems to think the new dive gave him.
Cr.rh - A better choice than DP but you have to commit to the move. They can essentially do anything they feel like to this (after you dive at them) because the move is slow. You’re out of range for the first hit (read:the fast part) to come close so they can see the sweep and react by jumping straight up / away / dp. Not a solid option
St.rh - I like this option. Not going to lie. Beats just about everything they can do besides a psychic dp. No arguing here.
Another Dive - resets the situation and the “mixup”
Walk up 720 - Yes this is new to R.hawk and walk up 720 is crazy good. However after the new dive you have to realize, that you’re opp recovers at the SAME time and is not going to let you walk close enough to where they have to guess between a 360/720 and a dp. This is why the old dive was better. Hawk could ALWAYS walk up 360/DP and everything from the range that the new dive leaves you at. This is nothing new to his game and does not add any crazy mixup people have been getting fucking a huge hard on for.
The whole mixup from the new dive is walking up from sweep range. Why you cant see this I dont know. The old dive at least scared people because they knew if they got hit by it they’re getting knocked down, losing momentum and possibly getting pushed close to the corner where its bad times for them. And it gave him a knockdown he so desperately needs to win.
I dont think Ive ever said I dont use the new dive. I do use it. I have to. It puts hawk closer. However, it adds no new mixup. Everything you could do off the new dive you could do with ST Hawk from sweep range (sans walk up 720 obviously) without having to risk getting DP’ed in the face. Yeah it happened with the old dive too but at least when you traded with it you BOTH got knocked down instead of now where hawk just gets knocked down.
Is this based of online ?
If so…
Name 10 decent Vega players.
Because they supplement the Chicken Wing. My main offense comes from the Short Chicken Wing now. That move is where I predicate all of my damage. Because of it’s ability to blow through moves and to hit overhead and the guessing games it sets up, it’s easily the best of his offensive moves. Rekkas, even after you perform them safely on Block, leave you a small distance with a reset. After a blocked Rekka, your options are mainly Try to Rekka again or Short Chicken Wing.
But if you manage to land a Short Chicken Wing on someone (not up close, mind you), unlike what has been claimed here, there are a TON of follow-up options. Flame Kick and Throw are just some of them, but another Short Chicken Wing is a good one. Low Short or Low Roundhouse is another one I really like, keeping people honest about Low Blocking. Low Jab canceled into another Short Chicken Wing is another good follow up. Overhead is yet another follow-up. And even Rekka Ken is a good follow-up. So if we look at it, blocked Rekkas lead to not much except a Short Chicken Wing. A Short Chicken Wing leads to a ton of things. So the Rekkas become a tool to compliment the Short Chicken Wings, but everything revolves around the Short Chicken Wing now.
So while Rekkas are better and are definitely good, that doesn’t change the fact that the Short Chicken Wing is where you will get most of your offense from now. Maybe I play Fei Long differently than most people, but I find it a terribly effective move, PARTICULARLY because of its ability to hit crouching people. The only time it DOESN’T work is against characters like Cammy, who actually can crouch UNDER the Short Chicken Wing and not get hit by it!
HA! Lies! And more lies! Your Zangief in ST was amazing. I think I learned most of my Gief tricks in ST from discussions with you. I still owe you my ability to beat Balrogs in ST with Standing Jabs. 
I should qualify my last post. I do believe, like you said, je110, that there are a LOT of great things about HD Remix. I think it was nothingxs who said that an ST HD Remix 1.5 that was a blend of the two might be the perfect game, and I agree with that.
However, I’m GLAD the match-ups are overall better in HD Remix. In fact, that WAS the goal of this change, so even though I think the solutions in VST were complicated, I’d still prefer more even match-ups. As a Cammy user, you can only imagine that I dreamed of days where Cammy was actually competitive!
My complaint again is that the solutions that were implemented were straight forward. Yeah, they were solutions, but I think they were solutions that detracted from a lot of the FUN in the characters. My favorite thing about Cammy WAS that she was so awkward… her DP was her best chip move, she relied on this bizarrely unfair Hooligan Roll to break turtlers, etc. I think with a little more thought put into the game, you could MAINTAIN those things and STILL make the character more balanced. Improving the Drill was a must… but improving it to the point where you were worried about the DP being too good so you nerf the DP means you made the Drill TOO good. Improve the Drill only a TINY bit. That’s good enough. Then improve some normals and made the Spinning Backfist better, etc. I’ve already written out a ton of ways I would have fixed Cammy, so I won’t bother here.
I always think back to Guilty Gear whenever I think about this game. I mean, let’s face it: if I told you I wanted to implement a character who had FOUR DIFFERENT ALPHA COUNTERS and that they were FREE (as in costing no meter), you would tell me I’m crazy, and the character would be too good. Broken automatically. Best Fighting Game character ever. Yet the Guilty Gear designers took it upon themselves to challenge themselves to MAKE such a character and somehow make her fair!
So while some may argue NO ONE should have a DP that’s safe on block, I say why not? Figure out a way. Allow Cammy to do that, so her whole goal revolves around getting up close and making her DP. So give her moves that allow her to get in, but that are all unsafe (like my example long ago of the super unsafe Roundhouse Drill that beats everything on the ground (and trades with things like Fireballs) for a knock-down). Okay, so you want Honda to be a defensive tank. There’s got to be a way to do it and still make him fair. One example would have been to give him a bunch of really good defensive moves that all worked well, but against CERTAIN things, but not others. So there’s no one solution fits all (Jab Headbutt). Having a DP move that stopped sweeps and mid attacks (Short Butt Slam that’s much safer on Block) but lost to air and high attacks and having one that stopped air and high attacks but lost to sweeps and mid attack moves (Jab headbutt still safe on Block) and force Honda to actually have to perform a motion to do the Oicho throw to counter throws (which makes him lose his charge for the other two defensice options) all allows him to remain defensive, but gives him just enough holes to break through if you play smart. I just don’t feel like a lot of changes in the game really dug down deep into what the core ideas of the character were.
I DO prefer a better balanced ST. I just would have preferred it in a way that wasn’t as straight forward. Make Cannon Drill better. Erase fireballs with Jab Headbutt. Make Rekkas reach farther. Give T.Hawk a safe dive. Etc. etc.
- James
Small fry!!!111!
Name 7 decent Fei Long players online or offline!
Which is SO annoying… :bluu:
I’m a dictator nub but fake slide is GREAT!
fake slide -> throw and using fake slide to punish throw escapers just makes dic more fun to play.
He was always half serious (ticks, corner traps, having to learn TOD combos) and half mindf*ck party tricks (DR, stomp mixups, air juggles, crusher mixups on cornered characters), and now its even more so.
I’m not trying to argue with you, I’m just trying to figure out what you’re trying to get at. You’re main argument is that CW is a great offensive weapon that surpasses Rekkas since it hits overhead and has a better mixup game afterwards since it has less recovery. I completely agree with this. I love CW, too. But what I don’t understand is why this would be different from VST. I personally got the idea to incoporate CW into my offense by watching a video like [media=youtube]bli-KgTQ9Mc"[/media]. Yuubou uses both CW and Rekkas, but he does the same thing you were describing in VST. You mentioned CW’s ability to blow through moves really well. Does that come from the fireball invincibility?
I guess I can’t tell if you’re trying to say CW is better now because the move itself it better, or if a combination of other factors (like a new easier motion) are included, too.
Why are you ARGUING with me?!?
No, I’m kidding. :razzy: If you take a close look at that video you linked me, you’ll notice that the majority of his offense comes from the Rekka Ken EXCEPT against Zangief and Bison, two characters who both have an easy time stopping/punishing the Rekkas and two characters who have a particularly bad time stopping the Chicken Wing. He uses the Chicken Wing all of one time against Ryu. The Chicken Wing basically is used whenever the opponent is scared of the Rekkas… it gives him the opening to use the Chicken Wing.
Now that the Short Chicken Wing goes through moves, it loses its biggest weakness: getting stuffed before it even has the chance to come out. In the match against Ryu above, there were plenty of times he could have ran up to Ryu and did the Chicken Wing through the fireball and peg Ryu’s arms and get him in. So what happens now is that… rather than relying on the enemy getting hit by a “random” Rekka, I’ll do Short Chicken Wings up close and hope it goes through their move or catches them crouching. And now, because they are worried about countering Chicken Wings, that opens them up to getting hit by random Rekkas.
Which means, again, the Chicken Wing opens up opportunities for the Rekkas, whereas before, the Rekkas opened up opportunities for the Chicken Wing. It’s backwards now.
Again, I’m not saying it’s a BAD thing. I like using Fei in this game. But it’s very different. Fei Long’s general play style is not much like it was in ST. I almost think he’s more like a Yang to VST Fei Long being Yun.
- James
Can you name 10 hawks eitherway? I cant.
USA hawks that is. He said how people are now using Hawk all of a sudden cause of this new dive.
I don’t see “everyone uses Hawk” in there.
Right. My point is, no one was EVER using hawk. Like I said, its you me jedi and Kuroppi.
Look dude, I can argue with you about this all day, but after your last post on the page before this, I’m under the impression that you believe I’m an idiot.
Uhh, alright? I dont know what you want me to say to that.
Well, if there were a way to improve the matchups while still maintaining that feeling of danger and spontaneity to the same degree that ST has, I would definitely be all for it. Theoretically it would work, since it’s the dominating tactics that tend to be scary rather than the character matchup itself, though I think that would be a harder job than what we’d be likely to see, and I have to admit, I’m not entirely convinced that ST’s flavor would be possible without at least some steep matchups, though there are certainly a few that could be improved, I think.
Realistically, ST and HDR are all we’re gonna get, so when I say “bring on the lopsided matches,” I guess I should probably clarify that I mean that I’m more than willing to take those bad matchups if the the end result is ST’s unique flavor compared to HDR.
Man, I like original ST better and all but some of these arguments are pretty terrible.
I especially like the people trying to put a positive spin on the existence of 9-1 and 8-2 matchups, as if the thrill of seeing one of your Japanese heroes lucksack a single-elim tournament win is more important than viability in all tournament formats.
The execution stuff is mostly BS too. It’s not like this is SF4 where you can literally mash out reversal DPs and get them every time - the reversal window is still the same as in ST, and that alone makes HDR stricter than most other games out there. The issues with super cancels and low forward -> fireball are legitimate problems, though.
I’ll say it again: My major gripes with HDR are: 1. Reducing the amount of thought required to play certain characters while not even making them that much better (e.g. Cammy, Fei) or making them too good (Bison), and 2. Not improving low tier characters enough (i.e. enough to place top 8 at Evo).
Also, to add a bit to the Bison thing, Sirlin’s placed top 8 at Evo on multiple occasions and has used Bison in all or most of those tournaments. The US has a couple other top Bisons in Giga and Atonalism, but I don’t think either has been to Evo.
And as for his tier placing in ST, nohoho did a really good writeup awhile back on why he’s better than the numbers say. It boils down to the simple fact that he doesn’t have any matches worse than 3.5/6.5 or maybe 3/7, and that’s well above average for ST. Total numbers from matchup charts aren’t everything; in a tournament situation, especially in the US, a character is often only as good as his worst matchup. That’s also why Old Sagat has far fewer tournament wins than would be expected, and why even those who do win use other characters at some point - the Dhalsim counter-pick is too easy and powerful for him to do it alone.
So yes, I am definitely of the opinion that he didn’t need everything he got in Remix, especially after playing NKI at MWC and watching him win. Valle uses Bison as his main in HDR as well.
I’ve played a few other good Hawks that weren’t mentioned: Traveling Penguin, Snake Eyes, TwistedAce and maybe one or two more.
I think in general though, people shy away from grapplers because they take a ton of work to win.
But I’m not so sure if people could name 10 good players who are playing online in regards to a number of characters. Cammy? Blanka? Claw? Fei? DeeJay?
Thanks man. I wasn’t sure what change made CW better. So I guess instead of it being a character specific trick it’s now an all purpose tool. I guess that’s why I’ve had a decent amount of success with it.
The simple point is.
How many players are playing a characters have no bearing on how good the character is.
Well not to offend anyone here, but the CW is a terrible move to get in on characters with good spacing properties…and with the inability to link a attack afterwards it loses all point and meaning. It’s lack of good block stun means it can be reversed fairly easily too…so in sumation I think it’s safe to say Fei is weaker then he was intiallty.