I think your overreacting, like a lot of people in the thread are with the original corner escape.
Making a 0-10 situation into a 2-8 situation does not make it ‘even’, it does not ‘take away’ anything, it just moves it from ‘ridiculous combo’ into ‘really strong combo that you shouldn’t get hit by’.
That is if we accept the premise that the DR makes his corner escape imbalanced compared to his jumpin combo. If not, then the change isn’t needed.
Maybe you’re right, and i see your point of view, but i honestly think they got the balance just right with him in remix. If they nerfed his combo like you suggest, i do feel it would take something away from him. I wouldn’t be nearly as afraid to take a risk against a dictator who i knew couldn’t dizzy me for 80%+ damage over 2 combos and win the round if i fucked up. I would play far differently, far less cautiously if the worst he could do to me if i made a mistake was a string of hits that took 30-40% off and stung a bit but left me standing. It would change how people approached the matchup totally.
I think these are the kind of ill concieved changes like we saw in some of the remixing decisions for HDR that have ripple effects that totally change character matchups in ways that weren’t intended ( akuma unblockable demon, air fireball hi/low setup,etc). Dictator is a scary character on the offense, possibly THE scariest, but he also has some of the worst defence in the game. I can’t tell you how frustrating dic can be to use in certain matchups.Some games are literally torture to play, like for example when you’re stuck in a corner eating 720s cos your defence can’t handle them at all. Nerfing his offense would make picking him pointless alltogether.
There is so much to write. However, I have been reminded lately how pointless it is to try have have conversation about these topics in these forums.
I certainly don’t konw it all, I am no authority on the subject, and there is always something to learn. But, I have played enough, watched enough, and discussed it enough to feel I have a fair and reasonable foundation of knowledge.
Just to end the point. Becuase, it is not worth the energy to invest any more. I’ll just say your right. So now you can go on showing everybody how much really know about street fighter! :tup:
fatboy for prez
Your thinking doesn’t address the issue.
Your assuming how much it would be reduced, what about 95%,90%,85%,80%? Again your overdramatizing the issue.
But maybe that’s not the issue at all, and maybe the issue is the u/f DR escape, or maybe there is no issue at all, it’ll have to be looked at.
-Your calling a change ill conceived that hasn’t even been specified.
-Your example of such a change is a programming error with akuma, not an intended change.
-Character Matches are supposed to change, they just aren’t supposed to get crazy or a lot more imbalanced.
The last point leads me back to fatboy’s post, if the changes mean that he goes from winning a majority to losing a majority, it’s hard for me to say it’s a bad change, could be a 4-6 to a 5.5-4.5 for all we know. But maybe Dic wins a lot more than that, maybe it’s represenative of a universal increase in power, it may be a problem, but i’m not sure we can say at this point but I would like to hear what people think on that.
It’s possible to nerf someone’s offense while leaving them with great offense, you can also improve someone’s defense and still leave them with terrible defense. Arguments like “Dic is supposed to have bad defense, so you can’t improve it” are invalid on their own.
But back on the original topic, I think this illustrates why SFHD is needed, I don’t think people have cared so much about how ST worked until it was turned on it’s head. I know NKI has done a ton to bring ST knowledge to the internet, but I’m seeing even more people interested in how the games work, if nothing else to follow the debate. I’m pretty excited to see how this ends up over the next year or two. Also by then we will see if Capcom is willing to move forward with patches are whether we are on our own, and we will be able to make much more informed decisions than we can now.
Most of the time it takes a bold move forward to shake things up, hopefully thats what we have here. If we just had ST, I’m not sure most people would care as much.
I don’t see how anyone can talk about the DR versus grapplers without pointing out that 2 of the 3 grapplers in the game got nerfs to their grapples separate from the DR changes.
I’ll make a few points, including a few that I haven’t seen raised.
1: I think the game is guilty of some overthinking and making changes based on supposed balance at the expense of logical consistency. For example Honda’s jab headbutt going through fireballs. It doesn’t look like it should go through fireballs, and it’s the only version that goes through fireballs. It doesn’t make sense, other than from the purely gameplay perspective of “Honda needs help against fireballs.” The same is true of Guile’s RH flashkick. Sure, there was basically no use for the old RH FK but after 15 years who cares? Just use short. I don’t see how that was a “problem” that needed fixing, and the change, while making some sense gameplay-wise, makes little sense from any other perspective. It just feels off. I think Sirlin confused “how do I make this a more balanced game” with “how do I make this a better game.” Honda’s headbutt just should not magically vaporize a fireball for no reason.
The art is ugly. Sagat low-block pose?
My character of choice, T. Hawk, got changed in a bunch of ways that made him into a different, dumber and less fun character. This is a prime example of a bunch of changes that sound logical but remove flavor, make the character less interesting and unique, and don’t really make him any better either. Some of the logic here was laughable - the old 360 was hard to do, so making it easier required some counter-balancing. Really? Show me someone who could’t do 360s with Hawk and I’ll show you someone who didn’t play Hawk, period. In my arcade the day Super came out people were ticking into 360s.
A lot of changes make the game more repetitive at mid-levels online. If online is going to be a big feature I think moves should be made with the online in mind. In ST there were some tactics that were overly easy at mid levels (Chun walk-up strong for example) and HDR has a lot more. Ken repeated jab dragons, Honda headbutts and hands, etc. Whether or not hands are better or worse overall they are definitely a lot lot better at mid-level play over an average connection. One of the goals of the changes seems to have been removing repetitive tactics but online the game has more of them than ever. Mashing out legs with Chun has never been a great strategy but that doesn’t make it any less annoying to play against people who only do that. When you play online against an average Blanka, Chun, Honda, Bison or Ken you know exactly what to expect and get the same two moves over and over and over again. Some of that is the fault of the playerbase but some of that is the fault of moves that simply work too well online against other average players. An average Honda can beat most other average players using one button. In short the game now has far too many Eddie Gordo characters.
Personally I prefer ST because I’m more familiar with it and my character of choice is more fun. Overall I can’t say it’s a better game but I also can’t say that HDR is a game that needed to be made. In some ways it’s stuck in a no-man’s-land of being not enough changes to be a genuinely new game but too many changes to be a simple update.
For someone who accuses others of theory fighter you produce some of the lamest theory-fighter I’ve ever seen.
Dictator’s TOD happens a hundred times more often than any of these. How the hell do you get hit by a deep jumping roundhouse from Sagat, accidentally unplug your controller when he jumps at you?
All of these combos require you to be an idiot or make a massive mistake to get hit by them. Dictator can set up a hugely damaging, hard to avoid combo off a variety of common situations. Plenty of characters have awesome combos they can do in training mode - Dictator is far and away the best at landing them in an actual match. This is simply an empirical fact.
You seriously believe the game should be balanced taking into regards how mid level players play it online ?
i seriously sucked (and still suck) at ST, but its still the most entertaining/challenging fighting game (for me). when HDR came out, i was actually pretty good. yay for friendly inputs making crappy players better.
I understand what your saying but i dont agree at all, DJ, KEN, and blanka are the best at getting there combos in. Dont get me wrong bison in damn good to and hard to stop once he get going but, by far dj and blanka are better at getting there combos off consistently.
And, i dont understand if you like Original ST or HDR what the diff just plat HDR in VST mode thats what its there for.
Or am i missing something because its suppose to be arcade perfect is it not…
Dictator is [media=youtube]XE1verIOVKE&feature=channel_page"[/media] specifically for his four and five hit combos that dizzy. Not only because they are flashy to casual players, but because of the frequency of their appearance at high levels of play. Not only are those large jump in combos famous in ST but he has many other combos as well that are constantly used in matches. Jump ins, meaty low forward, jumping strong, standing short, SUPER. Dictator has so many combos. Combo machine.
His meaty low forward combos after any sort of knockdown can achieve a dizzy. Head Stomp and Followup combos often dizzy. And even the four and five hitters shortened without the jump in can dizzy. Dizzy machine as well.
Here’s a video of [media=youtube]zpyW-LS1GwM#t=1m47s"]video of YuuVega using the famous TOD twice in one match. Here’s another of YuuVega coming back down from no life against another Guile player by landing a dizzy using a combo. A video of YuuVega (again!) putting Ken in the corner and fooling him with a cross up combo to end the round. Here’s a snippet of Taira getting a dizzy off of three quick hits. Stuff like this is the absolute norm at high levels of play. Yes Blanka, DJ and [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyVBYI7BFI0#t=3m44s”[/media] have TOD combos but the frequency of those combos appearing high levels of play is far, far less than Dictator.
As far as combos and dizzies are concerned Dictator is the number one character.
In the entire game of ST, he’s the number 10-12 character.
Also keep in mind that both SF2 and SF3 results have changed post-SF4, as more players are splitting time between the games and various other new games. I wouldn’t put a ton of stock in results during that time. 4 out of 100 million ST matches is cool, but most bison fights end up [media=youtube]X9hatLT-vl4[/media].
Hell you don’t have to get that fancy.
J.rh, C.mk. PC.
90% dizzy.
You seriously believe it’s ok for a game to be balanced for only for a small percentage of the audience playing an unpopular variant of the game?
Ideally the game should be balanced and fun at all levels of play, including obviously for the majority of consumers playing the predominant game mode. I don’t see how that could possibly be debated. Of course balancing a game across all skill levels is not easy but it’s certainly a worthwhile goal.
Yes i believe the game should only be balanced towards the highest level of play.
HD remix is unpopular?
Also, the game might be more balanced at mid level, because then akuma becomes available.
High level players abuse fireball to demon, but mid level you have way more opportunities to get out of it.
Yes, yes it is. Unpopular in the fighting game community at least. Yeah there’s a lot of randoms on xbox live if that’s one’s idea of a popular fighting game.
Which is why it gets a pretty reasonable number of players for a non-SF4 game?
You’re dumb if you honestly believe the things coming out of your mouth (fingers?).
Tournament numbers disagree strongly.
It depends. Most original ST players are dissatisfied with the changes made to their original players, especially if nerfed.
New blood to the game or those that believe that better balance was achieved will enjoy the game thoroughly.
Personally, I love it. It is popular and unpopular. Depends who you ask, it is not completely one way or another but is certainly controversial.