If I’ve learned anything about fighting game players is that they are hilariously dishonest about the flaws games they like may have. This is incredibly evident with the SF4 crowd.
That said by the end of it, SF4 did a lot of things right. USF4 ended a bit prematurely since it is evident that the game still had a lot of gas to it. Gonna take a bit before people are able to discuss the game in any productive way.
I didn’t claim otherwise.
The thing is both games have derp you can throw up SF4 Viper or Seth , but then you can fire right back with SF5 R Mika (seriously are we forgetting she exists?) or Ibuki, I’ll bet you Urien is another character that doesn’t care about neutral and just wants to put you into 50/50s. The difference is when the solid characters come together of both games - like Sagat Vs Ryu in SF4 or say Fei Long vs Guile - there’s a definite smart ground game that has to be played, buttons and moves are very nuanced, meaning you can stand a pixel away and die or a pixel away and whiff punish. It feels like you really have to make every button smart. There’s very little weird moves that completely by pass through each other or hit each other from half a screen away.
If SF4 is played with a small brush or a scapel in neutral, SF5 is played with a big giant paint by numbers fat paint brush or a Club. It’s just a big bunch of mush in there at the middle of the screen that leads to very little reward. The only time this game looks anywhere close to having an in depth mid range tactical game is when Karin plays Chun Li and even then Chun Li can decide - fuck it - here’s 5 instant air legs in row screw your spacing.
Again though, remove the damn lag and it might get better, but we can only review the game on whats presented. Like I posted before they gave Nash a 17 frame dash that is realistically 10 frames due to the start up animation and the game has an extra 3 frames of lag on top, I mean do the math boys, you want me to react consistently to sub 10 frame movements and pretend thats enjoyable?
I’ll be honest, if they just lifted the normals and frame data ( plus input lag) from SF4 and put it into this game = Perfect game. The mechanics are better in this game ( not great but better) and the balance is much better, there’s not many option selects. They just need to do something about the atrocious normal moves. It makes the game feel like guessing.
SF4 - mid range game + SF5 mechanics and character balance = Win.
Isn’t mkx like 4 frames? I don’t know what it is exactly my apologies in advance… but that game has a lot more things happening graphic wise and you would think with how bare bones everything is in sfv they could match whatever mkx is doing or do better.
I’ll give you that the buttons are better in IV, but IV isn’t really a perfect model of good buttons when you have characters like Elena and Blanka that force everyone into character specific combos and neutral poking options. Mika, Ibuki and probably Urien have derp when they get in, but you can’t really say they have as many ways to force themselves in as Viper, Seth, Fuerte, Yun etc. They don’t have meterless tools that just force themselves in with the same speed and force the same type of jump reactions as Viper, Yun or Fuerte. They’re just very dangerous characters when they do get into that spot, but that’s nothing new to have characters that are dangerous when they get in.
Nash dash is annoying, but can’t be any worse than Yun making you constantly guess between jump forward and dive in a game where jumps and dives are faster than they are in IV. I’ll take Nash over that any day. Nor worse than Fuerte being Fuerte. There’s plenty of stuff in IV that is dumber than Nash’s dash as far as reacting. I can’t honestly think of one thing in V that’s for sure dumber than the things I dealt with in IV.
I think there are ways to deal with the hit box issues that are in V, but I still don’t believe it’s as mushy or random as you make it out. People still get whiff punished, there’s a lot of one hit confirms and footsies can generally still be played. Not as well as in IV yet, but I don’t even think you need to specifically add anything from IV. Just adjust what’s there to make mid range more reactive with how the game is already presented. Especially since we haven’t even gotten rid of those dastardly 3 frames yet, hard to just say we need to start throwing more SFIV stuff on top of the game also.
The problem is when you start using individual characters as a tool to explain the game, which is what the SF4 haters continually do, they’ll pick out a couple of bad things - FADC DP being a great example ( Like there were 45 characters in 4 and way more than half couldn’t even utilise that) , same thing can happen in 5 with specific characters or V-trigger set ups.
What I’m talking about is the actual core of the game, the way the buttons feel when they interact, the way the hitstun lasts and the way the blocked moves push the characters back or let you frame trap or set up counter hit combos with really subtle pauses, just the way that the characters interact in general. You try anything subtle like that in 5 the character will either jab or jump out, they may even just decide to walk back out of your range.
It’s not even a contest for me. If you strip all of the mechanics from 5 and all the mechanics from 4 and are left with just two characters trying to out battle each other with spaced normal moves - SF4 has twice the depth of SF5.
Do you think reducing input lag will restore footsies or do you think the problem is too rooted in the shorter normals? I was impressed with Daigo’s whiff punishing with sweep this past weekend.
The lag would easily sort half this games problems. Other things they can’t fix though, like the ability to space certain moves on block. For example in SF4 you could use Ryu’s sweep at the very tip and it would push the other character back to another range, in SF5 the characters remain stationary, everything is black and white - you either whiff it or it gets blocked and punished, the moves have a very basic function, but that’s this game as a whole, it’s just a turn based game because they wanted to lower the skill gap between players.
I can live with a severely nerfed divekick that is borderline unusable
I just need the style and flair my dude
Closest thing to SF4 normals/frame data + 5 mechanics is Omega mode which seems to have been a testing ground for a ton of the ideas that made it into this game.
God help me, I try to.
Some of you guys just don’t get the point. I agree on many of the SF4 problems. Many, many of them were character specific too. But those replays showed some of the potential of sf4. You guys act like there is nothing good and you keep pointing towards some of the earlier sf4 iterations problems. Well how many SF games have been made?
SF4 had a long life, many SF games before it and they should’ve learnt a few things. It’s why i’d like to see a bit more from SFV (but feel they’re really playing it safe). From the way you guys talk. SFV is perfect and there is no need to introduce any more mechanics or improve on anything. Look at steam charts and it’s growth, despite recent sales. We only see a spike during DLC and then it quickly goes back under 2k players (PC). Ibuki and Juri were highly voted characters and are very new, yet I hardly see them.
I dont think “SFV defenders” are saying it is a perfect game. It certainly has flaws (input delay being the most obvious and most discussed one).
The problem is actually that most people cant stop themselves from talking in extremes:
SFV buttons are stubby, there is only rushdown, zoning doesnt exist.
These are simply wrong and, even worse, ‘trigger’ statements.
About the juri ibuki thing… well, that was to be expected, just look at how many people play alex vs how many wanted him.
We’re expecting a requested character to drop and be able to DEMOLISH people with them on day one. If that doesnt happen -> discouraged -> drop character.
But back to the actual game, Im all for more mechanics. Maybe another set of v-skill / trigger where you can mix old vskill with new vtrigger or the other way around, both new or whatever. Would be something like mkx’ character variations or injustice 2’s armor upgrade system.
I’m not sure what the point is of adding more V-skills/triggers when a lot of the existing ones are uninspired or unimportant to their characters gameplan. I think just reworking some of the current ones would be a huge step forward in terms of character diversity. I wouldn’t mind seeing alternate V moves later on in the game’s development though (assuming they can fix the ones we have now).
I loved watching character specialists do work in Sfiv. Bochan, momochi, gamerbee, smug, 801 strider, dieminion, pepeday were all awesome to watch. Unfortunetly playing the game was about as fun as playing against a Nash in sfv.
Dealing with divekicks, vortex, backdash, and the whole FA system was just a chore and not fun in anyway.
its capcom,of course they will not fix the “base” but pile new stuff on it.
happens with the game itself and will happen with the gameplay too.
So much hate for SF4…Ok…Just admit it, you loved the flashy combos but hated the fact they were to hard for you to do…Vortex/mix ups you couldn’t block and your tech throw was getting blown up by close standing normal’s…These are virtually non existent in SF5 and you love it! Go on admit it…you’ll get a pass if you do [maybe even collect $200].
Why don’t you just be cool and like a cool SF like Alpha 2?
I’m down with that.
ggs.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say It again: the biggest problem the game has isn’t 8 frames or even the stupid ways that moves interact. The worst thing about this game, the thing that forces players to “play down” to others levels is the lack of strong throw game.
Streetfighter has ALWAYS been a game about spacing and decision making. The spacing is enforced by putting the player with the worse ability to space, In bad situations. That “bad situation” generally tends to be being put into pressure of the throw/low variety.
But in a game like sf5 where there are literally TO MANY WAYS to escape pressure from throws, then spacing ability means less. The better player still wins, but by a lesser margin and certain tactics just aren’t as powerful anymore.
In sf5 here are the ways to beat a throw, specifically a jab>throw tick:
That’s way to many ways to defend when you already lost the right to a good defense by having shitty spacing or making poor decisions in the neutral. This breeds bad play where players don’t want to go for AA’s in tight situations because they know that even if they put themselves in a mixup situation that they can just throw out one of 6 or so different defenses whereas the offensive player has to try and anticipate which defense they will do and counter it PERFECTLY.
As it is, the game is offensive in a “get in” sort of way, but bogs down once in. This makes the neutral uninspired because people aren’t scared of the upclose offense as much as they should be… And when the neutral is uninspired or feels that way, the game feels bad as well.
If they simply decreased the throw tech window by around 3 frames and made it so that most or all characters can at least do jab>throw without walking forward… Then I think that would make the game feel MUCH better for most players. Throws would also have to give proximity blocking to to not allow for walk back to be a viable defense.
Once the throw game becomes better, then players would be stuck making real decisions and suffering real consequences when they do dumb things… And that would be fun to play against as it would mean that even on the receiving end of a beating that you are learning something, whereas in 5 you kinda learn nothing, or at least not nearly as much as normal, which makes the game feel unsatisfying to play.