Anyone else not buying into the SFV hype?

Street Fighter V
903

Mediums and heavies I feel are the buttons you WANT to see used since those are the longer buttons that do heavier damage any ways. Like I said if you watch footage of tournament Alpha 2 or 3rd Strike, you’re going to see mediums and heavies be thrown around most of the time over lights. Other than the actual differences the in the hit boxes, the buttons that are being thrown around between those games and SFV is mostly the same. The lack of emphasis on links is mostly the same as well. You have characters like A2 Birdie that literally have no links and just hit buttons.

Even with your character DeeJay, you can just see where the lights are just really important even from outside of throw ranges. He must be able to frame trap with them because he’s doing about everything with them once he gets in. Granted, that was how he worked in ST, but in that game there weren’t as many things that lost to jabs and the block strings were true.

In the 3rd round here he lands empty jump c.LK into like 300 damage just because he has 2 bars. This is the stuff people don’t like about IV. Get tagged by the quickest thing you have and leads to significant damage and stun without having to blow much resource.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wmbJIEPdWg

Another typical SFIV match where lights are being thrown as soon as anyone gets relatively close. Which is strange for Chun since she typically hasn’t been a character that focuses on light attacks except for maybe CVS2. The only traditional light she used was j.LK for cross ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBhGpxzS4vs

This was like the worst case scenario in Ultra where you get 2 characters that are at their best when hitting lights going at it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyww4GHdR7w

904

Holy. Crap. And I thought Rufus vs Yun was the worst possible jabfest :expressionless:

And now Bison has CC df.HP>st.MP>cr.MP>Inferno. Soooooo much more satisfying to watch.

905

SFV is not as good as older entries in the series. I honestly don’t know which is worse, SF the movie the game or this. SFIV even played better. The play control is not good (although it is fluid), art sucks, lack of gameplay options of course. But I really am disappointed at the art and play control. Every single SF series game has been a blast to play except this one. It’s kinda like MK5-8 where you have to press things exact or else you’re screwed. You can’t ‘feel out’ your gameplay anymore. You have to know exactly what you’re going to do or else you will get hit out of every thing. This does not make things more user friendly at all. Even for beginners.

906

Jin I really appreaciate you trying to add “sense” into this debate.

that conversion in first video is really nothing compared to those sf5 tags. that conversion costs two ex bars. and btw that was a real good dj playing. (I didnt play ultra btw.) you are exagerating 300 dmg. its cheesy peesy in 5.

in the second match both characters are charge characters. anyone would presume two charge char match up would be boring. yet noone is holding back. it’s a real good match. today I had some matches against a good ryu (was very good on shimmy stuff) I was laura. he held back most of the time. once I was knocked down he attacked. and it is all probabily when a character gets knocked down. the character with a true reversal changes the odds in this game. I especially dont like that oki aproach of this game.

907

And I actually don’t mind that. I think some characters got too much mileage off of jab confirms in 4. So I actually like this aspect of 5.

I don’t mind admitting when I’m wrong when a counterargument with enough support comes along. You talking in a way you wouldn’t speak to me in person, I do mind. So, will you see me at EVO or will you keep ducking me, tough guy? :3

I mean, playing against Chun does make me kind of upset. I mean, Viscant is here in SD and there’s a good amount of Chun’s in LA. But that’s not why the hate is here. Keyboard warriors talking brave and ducking $100 bets is.

Actually, there is a lot of technique in chess. Obviously, it’s not in the form of combo execution, but there are vasts amounts of openings and strategies that make its technique complex. And it’s really hard to keep the strategy you want to execute in mind depending on the skill of the other player.

Not just his fundamentals, either. His reads, even in the neutral game, are ridiculous. That’s why Nuckledu told me he’s one of the best at playing the player.

ANYWAYS, going back to my original point about Chun’s execution. I’ll revise my assertion: Chun’s instant air stomp tech is difficult. Instant air legs, however is not. If we’re going off the argument that “if top players aren’t landing it 100% of the time, then it’s difficult,” then fireball execution must be difficult because even Daigo gets a low fierce at fireball range every now and then. Instant air legs input: TK, then DF+kick. It doesn’t even need to be done quickly.

908

The chess analogy is interesting. If SF5 is a game of chess, SF4 is a game of chess where you have to do 20 pull-ups and answer a pop-music quiz every time you move a chess piece. It’s true that the second requires more to be good, and players with good physical condition and good pop-music knowledge will be less advantaged in the first, but should they be advantaged to begin with ? Is it really relevant to be able to do 1f links, does it really need to be a factor in determining who’s the best ? Can’t we prefer spacial awareness, anticipation, resource management as determining traits for victory ?

909

No, because the ability to plink in order to hit 1f links is what makes a player gud :smirk:

I’m with ya

910

It was a good analogy, and then you added things that aren’t relevant to the fundamentals of any of the aforementioned games.

In SF4, yes, the person who puts in the time to learn execution timing to perform 1f links should be rewarded for the damage, stun, and corner carry the 1f link combos have.

Awareness in spacing, anticipation, and resource management are much more important in fighting games and in SF4 than 1f links are. No one won off execution alone. And SF4 is not the only game with difficult execution. Even low forward super is much easier in SF5 than it was in previous entries. I mean, I’m reaping the benefit bc I can’t low forward confirm to super consistently in 3S, but in 5 I can, and I don’t even have to work for it.

911

That’s the most debatable part. 1 frame is well below the threshold for human conscious decision, so it only boils down to muscle memory. Some people (like you) think muscle memory should be rewarded, I don’t. For me it’s just an artificial obstacle in the “press button -> information transport -> the character punches” process, which is entirely artificial to begin with.

912

Nope and that’s what makes me not understand people that prefer SFIV over SFV. Execution isn’t an excuse or adequate defense for how warped the neutral is for a lot a characters in SF4 and the system mechanics is what turns people off. Not 1f links. SF has never been about execution as much as it was about the bolded points and even with that when SF4 first dropped it was largely considered a dumbed down game compared to older games in terms of execution. SF4 fans conveniently seem to forget that shit when criticizing SFV.

SF4 was the first game that had bunch of characters that could bypass the bolded tenants of SF, degrading the game to set up ladden guess fests. SFV isn’t perfect but it’s a much better representation of SF than SF4 because most of that is gone. There’s a reason why A3, 3s and CVS2 players like myself and legends are all coming back to play after 8 years and hated IV.

The swings in SF4 were so bad you would have an amazing match where footsies, positioning and meter management like Tokido Vs Fuudo at CC last year. A “Real” Street Fighter match and hype set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmjQ3Yt2bnY

Then you would have janky rolling the dice bullshit from vortex characters, people losing the game off 1 knockdown, boring uniform light, light, light pressure, low risk high reward rollouts and everything else mention by DevilJin in his post.

Right I’m the tough guy, not the dumbass that needlessly escalated a simple forum disagreement into a dick measuring contest money match and threatened violence. GTFOH :rofl: And nobody is ducking you, get over yourself bruh. I clearly said I’ll be at EVO and I’ll play you or your life partner Bubbles but you can keep your bummy $100, as I have no real interest in either of you nor would beating you disprove my point about top Chun players dropping shit. I’ll be at the Westgate like everyone else. You be cool tho.

These new niggas are a trip. :lol:

913

Well, the thing about muscle memory is that you have to train it, just like in sports.

Lol nigga, you’re ducking. I asked if you’d be with NorCal and you avoided it. Brave talk, make sure you come see me. Or keep your vagina under wraps.

914

You’re dumb as fuck. I said I’m coming and I’ll be at the Westgate. How is that ducking? I don’t know who I’m coming with as it’s 2 months away dumbass, just know that I’ll be there.

Jesus Christ.

915

You just said that in your previous post. But you avoided my NorCal question earlier, idiot.

916

Because EVO is 2 months away and I don’t know who else from Nor Cal is coming you retard. Who I’m coming with isn’t relevant anyway. I said I was coming and said so yesterday and that’s what matters. Stop extending this shit needlessly and muddying up the thread with this shit like a catty bitch just because you were wrong.

917

Come on kiddos, recess is over. Enough with this evo bullshit. Please.

I hate analogies because you can use them to prove or disprove any topic of discussion, but anyway…
Strategies in chess are more like mixups and matchup knowledge. You memorize them and you apply them. There are no artificial barriers hindering your ability to play the game the way you want it. One can argue if the human mind is the true hindering factor, but I think it would be a bit off track at this point

918

Keep making excuses, bitch. You avoided the question and that’s that. Either see me or don’t. Either back up your braveness in person or be a coward.

How is that different from combo execution? Even footsies are a combination of muscle memory and reads based on the spacing. No one is truly reacting to the activation of a special, normal, or forward dash.

And, like I said, execution is a fundamental. And there hasn’t been a good argument as to why it is more of an “artificial barrier” than it is a fundamental. Like, why would you want to join boxing if you have no interest in learning how to throw a punch?

919

Whatever you say fuck boy. See you in Vegas. Hope you back up all this shit talk too.

920

I don’t know how to say this, where to say this or who to say this to, but I am in such a weird place right now so I may as well say here. I love Street Fighter V, so much more fun to me than IV. I honestly do not care how other people feel because the opinions of the general population mean nothing to me and I went in Street Fighter V EXPECTING to be let down only to really like it a lot. I also really like Pokken. I expected it to be awful to and instead I get a really satisfying experience just in time for a cheap and very functional WiiU that has proven way more fun than expected.
I am also typically a person very tolerant of opposing views and nod my head at most of the things people against Street Fighter V say, but to often the one thing preventing me from siding from them, apart from liking the game, is that I feel they somehow indirectly group me with the Capcuck white knights EVERY. SINGLE. DAMN. TIME. Now the internet has decided to throw two games in the same cage hoping that tear each other apart because the internet loves fan wars, and the modern FGC is full of the “my game is better than yours because hurrdurr” fucking shitheads that get off on being dicks. Seems that for all my insignificant arse does to be kind to my fellow fightan family and be encouraging that still not only amounts to fuck all, but also seems to begat so many people who bitch at me just for liking something. Though i’ll admit that part is less FGC and more modern gaming mentality and human nature in general. I just want to like both games in peace and that is not happening.

921

Honestly, I really like the core game portion of SFV. I like the game mechanics and I love the cast. Once Urien is added, it’ll be my favorite SF cast ever. My real problem with the game is basically with Capcom and their handling of it. The best comparison I could make would be to a talented wrestler that just gets utterly and completely mishandled by its promotion. All of the shortcomings and problems aren’t really SFVs fault as a game…but as how it’s been handled as a game.

SFV is like…the Damien Sandow of fighting games.

922

Sorry but I still see the whole co plaint about light confirms as basically a scrubby complaint. Not that I myself am above such complaints, but we don’t hear this shit in marvel. Oh you did an easy chain combo… You don’t deserve that damage/pressure that you now have… Like WTF?

Dj is leaving out many considerations when he says that oldschool characters used more heavies and mediums… I mean, yeah they did. But there are reasons for that THAT ARE MISSING FROM SF5. And those reasons are WHY there were so many jab confirms and stuff in sf4:

In oldschool streetfighter almost all the top tier characters had 1 of a few things made them good, sometimes they had all these things sometimes they only had 1, but these things are the reason why oldschool was more nuanced and newschool isn’t:

  1. Safe/ positive on block specials so you DO NOT NEED TO CONFIRM. Ryu cr.mk xx fireball anyone? Do we forget that the most iconic character in the entire series has this fire and forget spammable sequence and it’s HIS NUMBER 1 GO TO COMBO?

  2. Pokes that do so much damage or are so safe that you can just literally do them over and over again and win with them alone, damn near:

Rog with dash low straight, guile and ryu with their fireball pokes and cr.mk
Cvs2 Sagat cr.hp had stupid range, fast, high priority and did tons of damage. Sagats could near win using only that in the early days of cvs2. Yes Sagat had actual jab confirms as well and other stuff, but lots of that stuff was held together by his God button.

ST chun… Could literally just walk up and cr.mk many characters all day. It did good damage was like near impossible to reactively wiff punish cause it was near the speed of a light attack, and coupled with chuns crazy fast walk speed could be used to win with just cr.mk and walking forward and throwing people. Wtf you need confirms for when you can do that? But is ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN SF5? No. So using these oldschool medium and heavy abusers as examples of newschool shit is disengenuous. Cause there is no one with a chun cr.mk and super fast walkspeed and crazy throw range in the game like what ST chun had.

Also remember that ST had throw ranges that were like 3 times bigger than these newschool streetfighters which when coupled with fast walkspeed made walk in throw something to really be wary of and also remember that throws couldn’t be teched but could only be softened… So throws did a GUARANTEED amount of damage in a game like ST.

And last but not least:

  1. Many characters in oldschool DID HAVE Jab or light confirms. Or medium into light confirms. Fucking A2 Sakura can do 4 light attacks into a knockdown special. She’s a rare case tbh, but even in A3, which is where I first learned to light attack x3 into super, there were light attack x3 into supers… Akuma has it, ryu and ken probably have it. Lots of characters have it. The only reason you don’t see more of it in A3 is because they do piss poor damage in v ism and because more characters can use the 1 and 2 strategies that I posted above. But to act like jab confirm is something new… Naw. The only reason for big emphasis on jab confirms is because of scrubs complaining about “spammable” safe or plus on block specials, especially those that could be canceled into, so capcom made most specials negative on block in sf4, but to make up for that gave everyone basically jab confirms so that one could still pressure effectively like in the oldschool without betting the farm.

But then… The scrubs, and even those that aren’t scrubs, complained about jab spam NOT KNOWING WHY IT WAS EVEN IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And now we get what people asked for. A game with almost unilaterally negative on block specials that leave you near point blank or have little pushback, really bad throws and throw range (scrubs hate to get thrown) shit vortex (scrubs hate to see their opponents get another turn for making a good call… Witness the old scrubby hate of getting dizzied) pokes aren’t great and now there are a billion moves to accomplish what 1 or 2 moves used to do in the oldschool, (because scrubs HATE to see a poke SPAMMED against them without using other pokes) and anything that is a combo starter is negative on block (save for some extreme ball drops like ryus BHK that is +0 on block but combos on hit) even almost all low moves are bad or negative on block and almost no cr.lk in the game can cancel into special.

Sf5 is quite literally the game that capcom unity and the 09er and gamefaqs made.

With 8 frames of input lag to boot because the designers of the game are THAT BAD.

The game is good because it’s different and has a big community because it’s streetfighter and because the netcode is the best that’s ever been in a streetfighter, but that’s about it.

Oh wait, the normal input buffer is also very good. But in a few years time some random scrub will probably complain about that as well, making all the 1 frame links to easy and thusly spammable with “no thought” and bla bla bla

Seriously though… Complaining about jab confirms… SMH. Shits been in the game since before '98

Seriously. It’s been 7 years since 09 and people still haven’t figured out that the skill in streetfighter, the skill in fighting games IS YOUR POSITIONING, NOT THE EXECUTION.

So why complain about jab confirms? It makes 0 sense.

With jab confirms everyone is on the same level or near that, executionally. The game becomes way more about your positioning, reads, ability to get from this place to that place and ability to adapt to situations and patterns.

This sf5 shit is some bizarro world streetfighter that tried to give everyone a safe space and let’s fight like gentlemen… Must take your turn… And only use capcom approved cancels… Like people like that?

Ok I’m done. Rant over.