Anti-air options

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

What are seth’s best anti air options OTHER THAN his dp?

Being a cody player I’m more used to throwing out anti-air normals on reaction when I see someone jump. So far I’m finding that all of Seth’s ground normals are completely ass when it comes to anti airing (with the exception of cl.HP). I can use his DP as an anti air when I’m anticipating a jump, however when I’m caught off guard, I get hit while dialing the DP. The best I can do in a situation like that is Jump back Fierce or Jump forward Strong, but even those get caught easily by air Tatsus and air throws.

Any Suggestions?

2

nj.MP
nj.HP and jump back HP (maybe jump back LP as well. 10 active frames lol)
nj.HK
fst.MP
cst.HP
cr.HP (tough to master this)
fst.MK on some characters
Ultra 1
Ultra 2
Tanden (kind of rare to actually catch people with this on bad jumps, but it is possible…)

3

So basically he doesn’t really have any good on reaction anti-air normals other than close HP. Air to Air normals are his best bet?

Also, I thought Tanden was a grab hitbox? I don’t see how you can anti-air with that unless you catch an empty jump or something (in which case, happy birthday lol)

4

Learn to DP on reaction because you get more damage, a knockdown, and a free mixup from some ranges.

5

Varoon, when it comes to Anti-air with Seth, you have to know all jump arcs and strict spacing. If you don’t, you’re going to get eaten up hard until you do.

For up close:
SRK
close HP

Mid distance:
SRK
standing MP

Far distance:
SRK
standing MK

6

After you boom and you see them jump, it is a good idea to dash forward and fst.mp, it’s really good but doesn’t set you up for much except dash -> spd

Also, ultra 1 is your best bet vs. neutral jumps, you should expect a lot of them, especially playing against cody :wink:

7

basically you want to learn when to use what srk thats by far the best option. Learn when mp makes more sense than hp, and where ex will hit where hp wont. Technically lp anti air srk is the best one because it is the easiest followup stomps but it is very hard to hit first with this and it seems to lose to every jump in so it’s very situational. Also against some characters (technically all but mainly gief) there is a jump arc where you can air to air stomp really early, this will give you spacing for a 1 hit air mp xx ex tanden setup.

8

As a new player to Seth, I’ve been finding learning his AAs the hardest part of his game. Despite having a really good SRK on paper, I don’t like it much as an AA. It’s great for mixups and stuff, but for AA it’s not the best. Coming from playing Sagat, who basically has an AA option for every range, I can’t get used to Seth’s options. HP seeks to work well for close-range jump-ins and crossups, but all of his invincible SRKs (i.e. MP, HP and EX) have weird arcs and for some reason I have trouble getting them out in time for jump-ins.

Any of you lot got any tips for AA’ing with Seth?

9

I use MP or HP SRK most of the time. 95% of the time I don’t, I use fst.mp, and the other 5% I use fst.mk. SRK is the best, but you don’t always have time for it, and then I tend to prefer fst.mp. It’s a bit wonky 'cause it’ll do bad trades with a lot of jump-ins if you misstime it or the jump angle is bad for its hitbox. fst.mk is even more wonky as it’s only really ok when you hit at the tip (and seems to result in bad trades, so if they hit a button you need to hit the tip of their extended hurtbox instead, hence the term ‘wonky’ 'cause ‘correct’ spacing or not depends a bit on decisions,) but I also like using it vs. neutral jumps when properly spaced.

If people have predictable jump patterns (over booms, for instance,) and tend to do attacks in the air, you can catch them with HP Tanden for a combo, for instance. You can also use focus attack into crumple if you predicted it correctly, or focus into backdash to get to safety.

EDIT: Oh, and of course clst.hp, as you mentioned, but I didn’t think about it as an AA in a sense as I personally only react to use it in a punish-sense. I.e. close neutral jumps, blocked bison stomp follow-up etc., or just for cross-ups. I never use that to deal with what I register as jump-in attempts because accidentally throwing out fst.hp vs. jumps can get ugly real fast. However, I’m pretty sure it’s also saved me a few times by lowering my hitbox to dodge the jump attack and also hitting them as they land, so I guess that’s something. You can dodge bison’s stomp follow-up like that, as well, for instance.

10

Thanks for the advice.

Regarding close HP, it actually works very well in close range jump ins. I very rarely get stretch arms by mistake and I seem to beat out everything. My problems come at medium range, but I’ll try using MP like you said. I prefer one button AAs anyway.

11

Seth’s DP is great for AA-ing. As long as you’re doing your DPs somewhat deep, you will never ever trade using mp or hp dps. I prefer mp most of the time as there’s a better chance of landing the last hit, which is vital to getting your following setup started. There’s a space between cl.hp and mp/hp dp range where lp.dp done a bit early will beat most attacks clean or trade, either way you can do stomp followup, but IMO it’s so narrow that it’s not worth keeping in mind.

Everything other than DP is situational.

  • cl.hp vs badly timed jumps in crossup range.
  • fst.mp for that safe long range option.
  • jump back hp vs dive kicks and other non-standard air attacks
  • both ultras

Jump back hp deserves a special mention in particular, 4f startup and amazing hitbox beats a ridiculous number of things air-to-air, including cammy (ex)dive kicks and Guy shoulder shenanigans (very important in the MU as DP isn’t a reliable AA there). I’ve stuffed even more attacks on occasion, Adon jag kicks, Viper dp, if they collide with your active frames they’ll actually lose. Vs Rufus this can completely mess up his game once he’s made his way inside to you, it forces him to do grounded frametraps to try to keep you grounded, otherwise you either stuff his instant dives or he watches you get away for free. Biggest downside to the move is that you give up lots of screen space, how well you deal with that is up to you. Very powerful to pull out occasionally, but don’t make it your primary option, DP is still the most reliable.

U1 is actually the best AA vs chars that can’t change their jump arc/timing. If you have the reactions for it, you can beat jumps at any range, including those annoying neutral jumpers at mid range (Yun, Chun, etc). There’s a timing vs divekickers too where if they’re close enough the dive won’t be enough to save them. Don’t try it vs chars like Ryu that can air ex.tatsu with meter though.

U2 is pretty rarely picked, but when it is it’s usually cause there’s a very nice specific usage for it. VS viper it shuts down burn kick shenanigans on your wakeup as it auto corrects very well. VS akuma, well you’d usually want to pick U1 for obvious reasons, but there’s a very compelling reason to pick U2 here. It gives a 100% definite AA solution anytime he jumps within range. With U2, you can reliably and without meter beat the instant air ex.fireball “shield” that he uses to force his way in. The ex.demon flip that can be difficult to deal with, the flip divekick you can’t DP reliably is a guaranteed U2 (as is any of his other options off the flip).

Cl.hp I don’t really like using apart from countering specific moves. Getting fst.hp is very, very bad, as in 300-damage-into-vortex bad. However, reacting to specific moves with it can be great. Bison headstomp followup was already mentioned, he comes at you from almost straight up, and if he happens to land farther away, your cl.hp automatically turns to fst.hp which happens to be good in this case, dodging his hand’s hitbox while hitting his recovery. Guy’s elbow drop, same deal.

Fst.mp I’m still trying to incorporate more of into my game, but I don’t like how it trades outside of specific distances. It’s awesome as a solution to dive kicks however.

12

cst.HP is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more reliable than j.HP against Guy. j.HP against Guy = your ass is getting grounded by a grab. Guy has a big hit box when he’s airborne for some reason, big enough to tell when you can cst.HP or DP him. Elbow drop is more annoying just outside of DP range.

fst.MP is probably the only reliable long range AA Seth has when he doesn’t have Ultra or meter. fst.MK works too but it is more likely to trade.

You can’t use U1 to beat (good) dive kicks reliably (namely Yun, Cammy, Rufus.) There simply isn’t enough time to react in a lot of situations. You can get bad DKs still; just don’t hope that you can shut them down.

U2 is rarely picked because it sucks compared to U1. Literally the only MU you should ever even consider picking U2 is against Cammy (fireball traps + her EX DK is very scary + you will often be like “fuck I should have picked U2” when that Hyakuretsukyaku fell short of killing her and she mopped the floor with you.) You are better off using EX DP against Gouki when he air fbs (free mix up and don’t waste an Ultra for likely ~250 damage) and he can palm whiff safely at many ranges as well as go over your U2.

13

Red Minotaur, thanks for that small Guy note, I’ll bear it in mind, actually. I completely forgot to mention jb.hp. I do use it, but it’s only as an occasional last-second resort, but I more commonly use it to deal with jumps against me when I’m in the corner. But! I have struggled with DPing Guy, as I only really anticipated it and countered with jf.mp for stomps. jb.hp should work in a lot of those cases, and I’ll try to apply clst.hp more for him, as well.

The Breaker, while I can see the idea of it being viable, would you pick it aside from vs. specific opponents? I like U1 for catching her escape ultra, spin knuckle or whiff drill for the mixup instead of just doing a fst.hp. I have very little experience against Cammy, though, so maybe I rely too much on those things in the MU.

14

j.hp does indeed get blown up by Guy’s air grab, but from what I can tell in that MU there’s no solid AA option against him, you pretty much have to do your best to deal with his jump-in/mixup, find a way to KD him and keep him down. he wins the mid and long range game, and close range too as long as he has advantage.

U2 doesn’t have U1’s utility in the vast majority of matches, but I think there’s at least one where it’s preferred and several debatable. Makoto I can’t see any reason to use U1, she doesn’t need to jump at you apart from instant axe kicks, she can axe kick over booms so she doesn’t need to focus them (can’t even boom if she has U2), only use I can think of is to OS her backdash but ex.legs would cover all her options too IIRC. U2 gets you extra damage in corner, very easy to setup chipout in corner, and if you’re going to react to her instant axe kick, it’s a lot easier doing it from back/downback position than qcf or dpm.

Other matches I like or consider U2:

Seth - Burst damage and AA. I thought this MU was for sure U1 til I saw Dashio vs Poongko and how little U1 did for either of them, they both ended up picking and sticking with U2 like 10 games into the 200 game set. The mirror is just stupidly explosive, U2 guarantees you an extra 10-15% more damage than stomps, and yes it’s only 10%, but there’s SO many comebacks that can result from that 10%. Plus it doesn’t matter that Seth gets no setup off U2, Seth forces himself to guess even on his own U1 mixup, it’s all just a bunch of randomness.

Akuma - only if I have an extraordinarily good read on my opponent’s teleport timing, otherwise U1 for sure. Ex.flip tracks so it’s an automatic U2, but I’m not even concerned about that since if you’re already sitting there baiting flips you can meet him air-to-air with j.mp regardless. It’s the instant air ex.ball that he uses to force his way in and lands in front of you with advantage, absolutely cannot guess wrong here or you’re eating throw or combo/OS sweep and you get vortex’d to death. Having U2 means even if I’m without meter I’m not stuck in that situation. Plus, I’d much rather use meter on boom FADCs, whether it’s for big damage combos or in neutral game to catch him abusing st.roundhouse.

Viper - mentioned, plus easy to setup corner chipout. It’s possible to tag even her crossup j.hk if she does a late timing to beat DPs, she almost has to be purposely baiting by doing early obvious crossups or empty jumps on your wakeup to 100% avoid U2, then your ultra suddenly has the added utility of a counter ultra lol

Sagat - this one’s probably U1, but I absolutely fucking hate how U1 trades 90% of the time vs heavy or ex shots at fullscreen. invincibility doesn’t kick in when you don’t have any screen to push back on during that locking period, and you just took free damage and wasted ultra. The only way to catch it is before the ball leaves his hands, Guile style, but if you’ve got that good of a read on him might as well just walljump.

Rufus - Doesn’t ball, doesn’t jump high.

Again though, I think U1 is the straightup better choice in most any other MU.

15

I’ve noticed getting hit out by a Sagat fireball, but I love U1 for that matchup just 'cause with proper reactions you can seal some of his game plan. I.e. I love just focus absorbing a few in that MU to make him more careful and less obnoxious.

16

If you can’t AA Guy consistently then you haven’t practiced it enough. Guy can get in range to pressure Seth but he does not get to jump in for free outside of this. Once he is out of range of cst.HP, he will get hit by fst.MP and/or DP. All elbows from bunshin flips are free Ultra 1 punishes - the flip itself some time before he can do anything, the elbow has a lot of start up (more than Seth’s DK in fact), and it has 8f landing recovery. Once he passes a certain point it does not matter if he elbows or not, he is gonna get hit thanks to the large hurt box of his. Punishing straight jump, elbow is a lot more difficult but it is possible - you can’t punish the elbow in this sense, but you can punish him for jumping. Your reactions have to be on point at all times here. “If” you get fst.HP is like saying “if” I mess up a combo - gotta work on it.
More importantly though, getting clipped or trading with an Elbow is way more preferable to eating the throw.

Makoto - U1 can punish her U2 much easier and will punish it when Seth’s U2 can’t. If she picks U1 she can no longer ignore Sonic Boom, U1 (if you’re getting Axe Kicked over every time you need to vary your FB speeds more and occasionally FADC forward or Super trap her.) Better OS in general for back dashes because you get a mix-up attempt and save your meter. Better punish in general because you get a mix-up attempt. Makoto is not a character you are going to chip trap often; you are in her face going nuts or she is going to be in yours shortly.

Seth - U1 actually shuts down a lot of Seth’s own options and can practically net you the game if you ever land it (300~400 + resulting mix up = stun kill.) OSing Seth is difficult sometimes but U1 helps a lot. You’re usually dead before you can land an Ultra in the mirror anyway though. Poongko and Dashio almost always go with U2 regardless of the match up (I’ve only seen Poongko pick U1 against Dhalsim and after losing a match in a set against a Zangief player.) U1 is better as an AA due to Seth’s huge hurt box and going full screen as well. Chip trapping Seth can be useful; but since you are usually going nuts on each other, it’s usually not.

Gouki - U1 is without question a better Ultra. Nearly all air FBs can be shut down with U1; those that can’t are punishable by focus absorbing one of them and back dashing into your U1. All grounded FBs are gone. Pokes are now risky. More reliable at AAing Demon Flips (who cares if EX tracks…Gouki doesn’t need to use that against Seth.) All teleports are gone. Resulting mix up can and will win games often.
Gouki does not get a free mix-up by TKing his EX FB, you can still force a trade if you have no meter and that is never good for Gouki unless he is going to kill you (sometimes you can even squeeze in stomps for a reset!)
I tried for a very long time to work U2 in this match up but U1 is just so much better and shutting down teleports is everything. fst.HP is not going to save the round after an SPD. Even if you read the teleport and get a jump OS to cover it with U2, you still don’t get the mix up that wins games like U1 will.

Viper - another one I tried to work U2 in, but making Seismos risky is too much of a benefit for Seth. AAing her is a little harder than it is with U2 but you generally get more damage with U1 (because U2 will usually not get all the hits…) Works decently as an OS and you can go into an unblockable on the following mix-up if you have meter to FA2 into SPD (or just go right into SPD and unblockable her.)

Sagat - I react to Guile booms often, it’s possible, just buffer when he’s walking back/downback. Anyway Sagat’s EX TS and HP Shot can beat U1 but your reactions have to be off for it to happen often. I was annoyed by this too at first but it is on the Seth player in 2012. Outside of shots, U1 is also useful for shutting down Sagat’s better but slower pokes and can whiff punish TKs. U2 generally just isn’t useful against Sagat since it knocks him full screen when you don’t have them cornered as well.

Rufus - Seth shouldn’t be getting Ultra to begin with, but I still prefer U1 because it converts j.MP, cr.HP, Booms, and EX Messiahs (when I’m doing cr.LK like a douche non-stop) into damage + mix-ups.

Seth also gets higher damaging combos on U1 if he has meter mid-screen for some reason.

And to answer the question - no, basically, U1 is just so much better. U2 can OS Cammy in some weird situations thanks to the vacuum effect but generally I just try to fireball trap with it. If I’m getting dive kicked like a motherfucker I’ll try to DP FADC U2 sometimes (if I have four I will rarely go for DP FADC EX Engine, combo into U2 depending on where I am - without U2, this is actually better than Seth’s four bar combos in some situations for whatever reason FYI.) Otherwise I just lose so much by guessing wrong on a U1 against her EX DK that I save U1/U2 for punishing or successful mix up follow ups.

17

If you do a delayed U1 after blocked EX Messiah, I’m pretty sure it’s a free punish even if he does delayed lk or hk followup.

It also catches lk followup FADC backdash, leaving his only “safe” option as FADC’ing it forwards to spend 3 bars and be -2 on block.

It also catches neutral jumps if he doesn’t immediately divekick. He can’t threaten neutral jump divekick.

Can you just sweep underneath Guy’s elbow?

I just can’t give up the utility of U1 AND the huge swing factor. I can’t tell you how many rounds I played horribly, landed a random focus crumple or AA ultra, and managed to land the sonic boom -> teleport mixup only to stun my opponent and win the round out of nowhere.

U1 catches threatening focus as well, which is HUGE for Seth because his other options are risky (EX legs, guess tanden)

It is my understanding that if Akuma hasn’t committed to an attack, he can basically always either palm (to land and recover) or divekick (to go over the ultra). I would j.mp or cl.hp a demon flip rather than risk whiffing an ultra or having it blocked into s.hk -> lol.

18

Yeah I think that’s true actually. Seth’s U1 should have enough invincibility if it’s done late.

You can sweep Guy’s elbow “sometimes.” I say that because I’ve had cases where I just go under him (never a good thing to whiff that cr.HK…) I haven’t really tried it much though so you might be onto something (I find myself using cr.HK to screw with a lot of hard to AA options when I’m trying out random stuff in games.)

I thought you could U1 Gouki after a flip at a very specific point (right where DK will get caught by U1 as it starts to go down but before palm will land.) That changes on which flip he uses though so I generally just don’t bother trying to U1 flips in real world scenarios tbh…I’d rather deal with flips most of the time and kill him on bad teleports anywho (sucks when I have an off day and can’t pull this off for nofuckinreason.)

random note, popped in vanilla a couple of days ago…
man that vanilla dive kick