Sorry to be asking rather than contributing, but regarding okizeme tactics like this, what makes you so confident you won’t eat a reversal when jumping in on your opponent as they’re getting up? I know the answer is probably that you’re timing a safe jump, but I would greatly appreciate an elaboration on how to time such jumps. Like, for example, if you score a knockdown from a sweep, how long must you wait for a safe jump? Are there any tricks to it? Same goes for a knockdown from an SRK, any tricks to timing the safe jump in?
i’m with Lord on this one regarding the sweep. it gives you plenty of time to teleport out or continue the pressure. non techable knockdown is nice too. fuck, sometimes i’ll go for a 2nd crossup tatsu before the sweep, and surprisingly, it works more than you’d expect. entirely dependent on the player though.
^Also we should tack on the safe jHP->dP Option Select into the vortex but I only see a few Akuma’s using this in Japan which makes me think it’s only safe vs. some on the cast.
Interesting. Thanks for this. Scaling steps in and the more efficient options become quite clear. My understanding is that it is also in our interest to maximise the hits from the Shaku due to it packing a good chunk of stun.
The issue I am personally having is how much more difficult it is to lp SRK > FADC > Shaku after a lk tatsu.
By comparison, I find using a fierce SRK infinitely easier but as you have explained, I sacrifice damage in doing so.
Do you have any practical tips for landing the lp SRK > FADC > Shaku after a lk tatsu beyond just plain practice? Naturally this will always be the best method for me to get this down to muscle memory though any known nuances that help towards achieving this would be appreciated.
I can fp SRK > FADC > Shaku after a lk tatsu all day long, but that lp SRK just plain throws me off. I believe it is because you have more time to FADC from the FP SRK (due to the extra hit) that makes that option easier and this is where my frustration stems from when I opt for the lp version.
Either way, thanks for the info you’ve provided. Its doubled as another motivator for me to get this lk tatsu > lp SRK > FADC mess nailed down.
Me too. I LOVE the “vortex” mixup and I use it just about every time I score a throw.
I almost always sweep after scoring a hit on a cross-up tatsu simply because it puts them right back where they started – in the Vortex as described so well in posts above. After a cross-up tatsu > sweep, I go right back into the mix-up game doing either another cross-up tatsu > sweep (or another mix-up option like jHK) or do HK demon flip dive kick ambiguous cross-up (you’re often well spaced for this as well).
As Elwood said, it really is amazing how many people fall for the cross-up tatsu > sweep > cross up tatsu > sweep > (fake crossup tatsu) jHK > BnB stuff.
Also, another good mix-up option out of the “Vortex” is to land either empty jump or whiffed non-crossup tatsu (do it slightly further away to trick them after they expect cross-up) and Super them point blank.
The sweep is also useful because it’s a lot easier to pull off after doing an option-select Ultra Demon out of the cross-up tatsu, which beats the backdash and teleport many players will use to try to get out of the wake-up game.
Two things…
First, we can probably add the ‘air fb while the opponent is knocked down followed by a crossover’ to this vortex list. It will confuse some people outright and make others whiff their reversals. I need confirmation, but I think Sagat will whiff his SRK every time since he is so big, and get ‘teleported’ to the wrong side.
Second, I need a clarification on the jump kick.
"Jump hard kick/medium kick"
I feel stupid, but how exactly do you pull off a safe jump kick on an opponent who is getting up and can reversal you… If you are talking about the dive kick or the demon flip dive kick that’s one thing, but I don’t think you are… Or are you talking about a cross over MK?
That vortex thing is great inspiration. Ive never tried to lay that much emphasis on crossup-tatsu, guess Ill be off to the gym.
I saw a pretty good Gouki player do some demon setup shenanigans at a tourney. Hed do a neutral jump or backwards jump and air hadou. Then jump in via demonflip or ex flip, baiting a reversal, then demon. Although he caught two guys with that setup I think its hella unsafe and best used very sparingly, if at all. Id prefer tatsu, reset, super if I decide to burn meter for not guaranteed demons.
Contribution:
Nothing Major, folks already know; but cr.MP can be used as a Super setup on block. I had this in reserve long before Momochi used it vs Honda at God Garden. The range has to be deep, jabs into cr.MP doesn’t work but a deep cr.MP by itself or one after a jump-in like a cross-up j.MK are at the right range. Do a casuall speed Super during the block stun and it should come out right on time at the end to be un-jumpable. It is possible to do this too early, but it’s something to have in the bag when you confirm jump-ins with cr.MP rather than a block string.
I think I may have finally sussed out the intended purpose of Akuma’s d+MK Dive Kick. It’s just comes down faster than others. It descends quite quick from the top of your jump on a more narrow trajectory rather than waiting for the lower part of your jump for something like a j.MK. It doesn’t have the wind-up of the Demon Flip Dive Kick. It gives your oppnent lesser time to AA, and with the trajectory of it at the peak, it could potentially help mix-up your cross-up j.MKs and create something morre ambiguous. All in all it’s still pretty crap though. Would need to be better to really fulfill those uses.
Now I’m with D1KDTHS with my question on this vortex thing. I see lots of vids of advanced players get stuck blocking this over and over, eating the mixups and dealing with more vortexes off jumps on untechable knockdowns. I see advanced Ryu’s get hit by throw, air fireball, Demon Flip all the time. Sweep, deep Dive Kick like magic. The whole time I watch, I’m thinking: your average online joe wouldn’t reverse this shit all day?
What makes you guys get away with this stuff?
Similarly, I’d like to point out my faith problems with the cross-up Tatsu. It whiffs over duckers unlike some other jump-ins. While advanced players are cautious not to duck on jump-ins and try to block appropriately, considered an overwhelming majority of the online population respond to cross-ups with crouch jabs/crouch throw, I’m struggling to find any of its value in my game right now.
A properly executed cross-up tatsu beats almost every reversal in the game, with the notable exception I can think of being Blanka’s EX up ball.
After you hit them with a cross-up tatsu (or they already expect it), you can start doing other elements of the vortex. It confuses their block direction and makes them afraid to reversal, because if they do the reversal they are getting hit by the crossup tatsu and swept, and right back into the Vortex.
Also, a safe jump is possible during an untechable knockdown, you just have to time it meaty enough so that if they reversal you, you are already landed and blocking by the time the reversal’s active frames come out.
I still have trouble doing the cross up tatsu perfectly also, sometimes it wiffs people (probably because my timing is off slightly). When this happens, be ready to tech throw or try to Super them.
They can still option select dp a tatsu if they duck down and get the timing perfect, as in as late as possible. Its not untouchable.
vortex is just your mix up game? such a fancy word for such a basic tactic.
Well of course not, it would be a bit broken if it was totally untouchable.
The reason it’s effective is that the opponent has to guess, even a very very good player has to guess. If they guess that you’re going to cross-up tatsu and try to do the late ducking DP as you described to beat it, pretty much every other option out of that mix-up will beat the late reversal DP and give you a free BnB.
Basically, if you’re guessing to beat cross-up tatsu, I would say you have about a 40% chance (give or take) of being right. If you are right, you only do about 1/2 as much damage with your reversal as Akuma’s BnB combos do to you, so the mix-up is heavily in Akuma’s favor both in the damage potential and the likelihood of escaping correctly.
i think its more of a joke. but I think it also refers to a mix-up game that has so many different outcomes that you’ll almost certainly get hurt once or twice before you get out, like fuertes.
Opponent in the corner on the right side of the screen: a Demon Flip Kick can cross them up
If its the left side, however, even at point blank using the HK DFK…it won’t.
Tis all.
I’ve definitely cross up with demon flip kick on the right hand side. So maybe you have the sides mixed.
Excuse the noobness.
This may be already known but this is my simple psych out trick to do the Super Raging Demon. All you have to do is a simple 2 hit combo, even if they are blocking, completly jump over them. While in the air you input the super and its an instant grab. I catch people 85% of my attempts.
If you want to be flashy, you can do short tatsu, c.lp, medium demon flip into the super.
edit
That’s interesting… I don’t really think about his normal dive kick much, but maybe we could take a cue from Rufus and target specific areas of the body for different mix-ups?
Its frame advantage doesn’t seem as bad as I believed. He can hit anywhere below neck height (Fei Long) and whiff a throw on block, meaning he’s at least +2 advantage from there.
If they block the dive kick…
If he hits the head of a normal size character, he gets a tic throw/ex tatsu/hp srk counter-hit mixup. If he’s fighting a character who has poor options against dive kicks, and they’re put in the habit of teching throws, you could go for a RD.
About shoulder height, he can go for a counter-hit with cl. hp, or a safe block string with jab.
Mid-section, you have a good amount of frame advantage. Possibly, cr. hp could land you a counter-hit. Otherwise, you can go into demon flip mix-ups off it.
On normal size characters, you should always be able to at least combo jab/short/strong. And around shoulder/arm-pit height, you get cr. mk and sweep.
Edit: I drew a picture because I’m bored…
If you are referring to cross up dive kick in the corner then it is character specific. I found that out testing resets.
Although on interesting property in the corner is that off of a reset the LK.Flip can still grab if timed properly, but if your foe attempts to uppercut then he will whiff and sets you up for a free punish. In a way it is an ambiguous flip.
Now a downside is all your foe has to do is move forward to get out of it.
The d+MK Dive Kick also provides a decent setup for the Super on block. Blocked against their head or shoulder area the blockstun is short enough for a simple Super to be buffered out to catch them but it’s also reversal safe, so you got a kind of 50/50 thing there.