Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that. I was thinking it was rather fishy that such a trick could be inescapable, forcing people to eat the demon no matter what. I’m guessing then that my opponent sees my overhead and is trying to counter or stand up, making my demon connect.
Exactly. If he isn’t holding up the frame you start the demon, you will hit him (assuming you timed it correctly). But it isn’t a complete gimmick. If you overhead him a few times on wakeup, if he holds up during wakeup, your (meaty overhead) will hit him. Thats because in prejump frames you can’t be thrown but you can get hit. So after a while once he starts blocking instead of jumping, super him.
I’ve seen JR throw a st.HK while his opponent is waking up and canceling into Super Demon at point blank range the moment they’re in their “stand up” frame. A nice gimmick to be sure, but not one I’d try without his level of confidence (and skill).
^ I’ve done that a few times. Landing it is better than sex. :lol:
I have a quick question. Not exactly new to Akuma but trying to level him up a bit after getting frustrated with Sakura and bored of Ryu.
Can someone explain to me the lp to lk. tatsu link? It seems that linking the tatsu gets way harder for me the more lp’s are before it. And is that method of comboing into lk. tatsu better than lp -> **mp **-> lk. tatsu??
It’s very effective if the opponent has a defensive mindset as they wake-up. It will completely lose to reversals if the opponent decided to do one before your Super flash started (ie, getting the reversal message when doing it in anticipation of an attack you will try). They can also escape by holding up as they begin to rise to their feet before the Super flash (which would only be done when they expect you to attempt the Kara Super once they’re registered standing). Jumping on wake-up isn’t otherwise a favoured tactic as it’ll get you hit by a variety of attacks.
When they wake-up doing nothing or blocking or trying a basic attack (provided your flash begins between them waking and when their attack can hit); once the Super flash begins, they cannot escape. Their options for avoiding it are from anticipation and involve risks from other things you could have done to capitalise on the threat of the Super.
Based on who you’re playing; getting a stalwart player to want to commit to something like a reversal has a good value, but then other players can put up no resistance to the urge to reversal at random times and when they do: you’re Akuma and you’re fucked.
I used to use this a little bit when I was first starting SF4 and Super setups were still quite few and far between. The bottom line is that when you use this buffer to represent something that will make them block or hesitate, Akuma cannot block a reversal if he would like to dummy a Super setup to bait them: the recovery would be punished and so it simply works as a buffer with no other option but to Super.
Few opponents understand this, but when they do realise that he has no other option to bluff with, it becomes an expired gimmick.
I might be using the term wrong, but a “meaty” jump-in is one that you do so that you are hitting the opponent right as they get up so your next attack is safe, or safer, so they cannot DP or reverse you…correct?
If I am using the term right, I have been working on improving my game, and is there a 100% way (if timed right), that a demon-flip jump kick will always be safe? I am learning to be quite aggressive with Akuma after a knock-down and it has paid off well, but at times (20%) they are able to DP me, or reverse me. Though most (80%) of the time, I am able to get the attack in, go for a good and safe block string, or hit confirm into the bread and butter.
And at some points, I can tell they TRIED to do something, though my timing was apparently a well timed “meaty” attack.
Is me getting reverse or DP’d because I am timing the jump is a little late/early, or is a meaty jump in, like everything else in the game, able to get beat by one method or another (rock/paper/scissors theory).
Thank you.
I’ve been working on this too lately: cr.lp xx lk tatsu and cr.lp x2 xx lk tatsu are fairly easy. It’s the cr.lp x3 xx lk tatsu that’s a bit more complicated but it’s been explained here before that you have to link the 3rd cr.lp instead of chaining it (or the other way around… I always get these mixed up!). In other words, you have to give a slight pause before the third low jab so that it still combos into the 2 previous jabs, and that allows you to cancel into the lk tatsu.
I can get it with about 30% consistency now, but I found that cr.lp x 2, cr.lk xx lk tatsu is much easier and it gives you the same result - 3 quick hits that the opponent can’t mash reversal through into the lk tatsu that sets them up for a bnb follow up.
Thanks Venom. I did manage to find it in the forums yesterday after I posted. It was explained previously just as you explained it. I figured it out in training mode fairly easily. That damn lk. tatsu to sweep timing is pretty tricky tho too, and of course you do it in practice but can’t hit it once playing online.
A meaty is a tactic that saw a lot of use in Street Fighter II, but lost a lot of it’s value in SF4 because of how much easier the reversal system became. With a meaty you time it so that they wakeup straight into the active frames of the move and unless they are in an invincible state on their very first frame, anything they do loses outside of blocking. The timing also gives you a boost in frame advtange, but it’s not largely significant.
In SF2, SRKs and similar reversals were godly, but were difficult to execute within the reversal window and get a true reversal. Thus many reversal attempts or wakeup DPs would come out the frame after the reversal frame and thus you’d get hit by the meaty. Meaties were used to scare people out of trying to reversal on wakeup; (or punish them for missing it) unlike SF4 where you have to break off your offense to bait a DP, meaties in SF2 let you handle wakeup DPs without compromising your offense.
If you sensed the opponent wasn’t able to get reversals on-command consistently; you could meaty them on wakeup pretty much constantly. Since they had no invincible backdashes or focuses in SF2; without gambling on a reversal attempt they had no other option but to just block; leaving them open to throws, which in SF2 still threw them and allowed more meaties even if they teched.
There has been substantial defensive innovation from SF2 to SF4, while meaties are broadly the same concept. Any player can reverse you out of meaties on-command in SF4 so you cannot use them anything like the way they were originally used. The new form of meaty adapted for use in SF4 is essentially the safe jump, and applies to reversals 4 frames (5 frames, realisticly) or slower.
Jump attacks all lose to 3 frames SRKs unless positioned and timed in a specific way so that the Shoryu whiffs, but the jump attack can still hit the vulnerable part when the invincibility expires. Akuma’s Dive Kick can stuff Shoryu’s this way, but it’s very specific and you can’t stuff DPs by doing casual Demon Flip Dive Kicks and getting lucky.
I wrote this on stuffing Shoryu’s in a response to a question earlier in this thread:
Don’t challenge opponents reversal options with Demon Flip Dive Kicks unless you already know exactly what happens when opponent uses X reversal or Y reversal. To give you an idea of a good way to challenge their reversals with it: when you do a forward throw, dash twice as fast as possible and immediately MK Flip to Dive Kick from the top of the jump arch. This gives you a specific line-up and timing for the dive kick as they wake that will beat all of Kens SRKs; however if he does his ultra you will eat the whole thing. If the opponent understands this and knows to use ultra on that setup, you can fix the situation by doing palm instead of dive kick, allowing you to block the ultra as you land. You do not however have time to block from a palm if he did a regular SRK instead.
Also from a forward throw, you can instead whiff a double roundhouse as soon as the throw recovers and then immediately HK Flip and Dive Kick. This gives you a different lining and timing that beats all his SRKs as before; and if he tries ultra, it will completely whiff as you pass over to his far side. The down side to this angle is that you cannot do the flip throw to get them for blocking as it will pass over them as they block, so all you have to mix with it is palm to the far side, only you are at frame disadvantage from that.
You can replicate this timing with your general dive kicks by working on your own setups. For example: if you land a typical distance sweep (the one where you are sweeping with your foot or ankle rather than the tip of your toe or your upper thigh. Doing cr.LK cr.LP far LP to sweep would leave you about the right distance) you can do an immediate MK Demon Flip but then start the dive kick after the top of the jump, as you start falling. This gives you a positioning that allows the kick to stuff all of Kens uppercuts and make his ultra whiff. (if you don’t get it just right, his MP SRK will trade; so practice it so you know what the correct one feels like)
This is the subtlety of what players like Tokido do on their knockdowns, (while some may see it and think he’s just doing any random dive kick from the knockdown) any why opponents in vids respect it enough not to try reversing him out of everything.
Meatys don’t beat 3 frame reversals like Shoto shoryukens. When demon flip beats it, it is the opposite, you’re hitting them later on their wakeup and they are reversalling and running out of invincibility. They can beat it with a late non-reversal shoryuken, but sometimes you will only have 1 frame to reversal rather than the 5 frame reversal window while getting up. So the demon flip kick acts more like an SF2 meaty in the way that it’s hard for them to beat it, but it’s not actually meaty.
Just remember that there are few characters that you CAN’T tatsu sweep. The easiest ones to remember are the 3rd Strike Cast - you can’t tatsu/sweep them. Then there’s Blanka, Ryu, Ken, Bison (Dictator), Abel, Fuerte, Gen & Rufus. Basically, most of the “cheap” characters that give Akuma a hard time, you can’t tatsu sweep! :razz:
Anyone else, it’s all good, though yes, in some cases there are timing differences for when to do the sweep to catch them as they fall. Practice, practice, practice!!
You can actually tatsu sweep fuerte, but it only works after cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.mp xx lk tatsu , sweep.
Ah! I was referencing the Tatsu Sweep page on these forums which listed Fuerte as “unsweepable” after tatsu. Funny it should only work from that combo… ??
c.mpx2 xx lk tatsu also.
Hello All you smexy Akuma players! I was hoping to find a thread that really explained in detail on Akuma’s mixups, when your opponent is knocked down. What i’m looking for is an explanation on what is safe, what is impractical, what is partially practical ( I.E. Don’t do air fireball on Ryu’s wake up if he has 3 bars for EX Shoryu > FADC > Ultra, but is totally safe to do when Ryu has zero bars. ). I just want to indulge in the that wealth of knowledge. : D If someone else has asked this same exact question, I’ll delete my post immediately after i get my answer to avoid flooding the FAQ thread. Thanks guys in advance, I really appreciate it.
Hey dude, a lot of what you are asking is covered by Lord Of Ultima’s excellent Youtube tutorials.
YouTube - lordofultima’s Channel
Give this a shot. He has many videos showing setups, combos, safe-jumps, option selects, tricks and general information specific to Akuma. Definitely a great starting point.
Thank you so much! I’m sorry if my post was inappropriate or blunt. : ( I’m just wasn’t sure where to look for that mix up on wake up exactly, or at least an up to date SSFIV version. I really appreciate your help, thank you very much. : D
A question concerning a Cammy setup I stumbled upon a while back:
j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, c.lp xx lk tatsu > sweep.
I immediately jumped forward (i.e. held up-forward during my sweep) and performed a d+mk dive kick.
This landed safely and allowed me to block Cammy performing a reversal cannon spike (her srk move) in a similar way to Sagat performing a tiger uppercut after we forward throw > dash dash, j.hk safe jump.
My question is - is this a viable, safe-jump VS Cammy? Did I fluke this due to online latency perhaps? This was a pretty sweet setup and it become pretty obvious that I could safe-guard with delayed tech in case she didn’t reversal.
A question concerning a Cammy setup I stumbled upon a while back:
j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, c.lp xx lk tatsu > sweep.
I immediately jumped forward (i.e. held up-forward during my sweep) and performed a d+mk dive kick.
This landed safely and allowed me to block Cammy performing a reversal cannon spike (her srk move) in a similar way to Sagat performing a tiger uppercut after we forward throw > dash dash, j.hk safe jump.
My question is - is this a viable, safe-jump VS Cammy? Did I fluke this due to online latency perhaps? This was a pretty sweet setup and it become pretty obvious that I could safe-guard with delayed tech in case she didn’t reversal.