"Ain't my style..." - The Paul Phoenix Discussion Thread

Nice catch on the top 10 stuff, thanks for setting it straight before we got too used to using them lol, but didn’t Paul have qcf+4 in T6 as well?
Still going to have to throw it out more often now I know it launchs on counterhit as well.

Looking at the data on avoiding the puddle 3 on it’s own is still safe at only -7 on block, is it worth throwing it out as a poke without the duckable 2?

By QCF+2 being more easily punished now btw, are we talking launch punished or just eating a dash attack here? (I’m guessing it could get launch punished by something like Mishima crouch dash into WGF but do we need to fear everyone getting a free df+2 or hopkick punish off it or is the pushback still enough to not worry about that as long as you don’t whiff?)

Edit:You sure you meant qcf+4 was a launch on counterhit and not qcb+4? Been testing it and whilst Paul’s 4 launchs on counterhit and his qcb+4 does that stun thing which leads to a juggle, qcf+4 doesn’t do either.

Yes, I mean qcb+4, that was a mistake in my part, qcf+4 just does his ws+4, qcb+4 is the new move.

3 on it’s own is still an ok 16f mid poke, easy to use, but it’s linear like Paul’s moves usually are. You can theoretically hit confirm 3,2, but it’s pretty tight. There’s also a gimmick in doing a delayed 3,2 so that the 2 hits CH as it’ll launch, but don’t except to land it too often. Ff+2:1 is a far better long range mid poke that actually tracks side steps because you dash before doing it, but it does have the same problem that it’s mid,high so good players will duck the second hit and launch you. Really lame that it’s a just-ish frame and doesn’t even jail on block, but that’s Paul for you.

About punishing deathfist, it depends on the character can it be launched. It’s -17 on block at all ranges now (Used to be -15 for the clean hit range, -17 if outside) but still does have that pushback. Still, Hwoarang launches it every time with b+3, and as you said I think Mishima’s can DEWGF it if timed really good, there are probably more, but other than that stuff like both Kings’ b+3, Law b+2,2, Paul ff+2:1, etc. punishes it clean every time, but regular hopkicks and df+2’s will never reach. It’s still a fuck ton damage 15f mid, I mean Paul’s UB now does only 3 points more damage than clean deathfist, it’s really silly, so it’s well worth the risk against the characters that cannot punish it with a launch or something else bad.

not sure if the part about the DM was directed at me or not? If so i think we have a lack of communication as i never said to use it to chase back dashers. What i said was you can do his qcf,ss cancels then mix up his dm with mids. You need to mix in lows off of his qcf game so they can’t just block high every time and Dm is his best low by far. It’s to quick to block on reaction does great damage and is safe just so long as you can do all 3 hits. You complain about moves being unsafe but hasn’t paul always been a high risk high reward character?

As I said, DM will never hit anybody who is doing BDC as it’s range is terrible and only trips on clean hit, no matter how much you try to duck in or ss cancel. If you try to do it on the open against a good player who will BDC, what will happen is that the low will hit normally and not trip them and they can block the rest of the move, or just side step the last hit and launch you. Demoman becomes viable only at the wall when they can’t bacdash out of it’s range. Paul is a high risk, high reward character yes, but you must learn to calculate and weigh those risks in order to reap the rewards. You’re better off doing ss+3, b+4 or qcf+3 out in the open if you want to poke low.

Dear god…u make it sound like paul is a bad character O_O

Yes I made some errors when I was posting this like the WS 4, 2, I meant WS+3,2 thanks for fixing all that.
But I do have a few remarks tho, yes death fist can be punished and I also mentioned that, but it is still only by a few.

We both probably have a different take on the definition of ambigious. My SS+3 with paul has never been blocked ever, because it hits low even tho paul is standing high and NOT crouching, so to me that’s pretty ambigous cause you can’t really tell by looking that he’s going to hit low. Same concept with B+4
And both gives u + frames on hit so U have the advantage.

You’re saying B+2 is “barely” safe at -9. How can it be barely safe when there is no move (by my knowledge) that has a startup of 9 frames or faster. It IS safe, you can’t punish that.
Also the range of that move has increased and don’t forget that it hits mid so you can’t duck that unlike his qcb+4.

d+1, 2 is still pretty good if u ask me, I’ve seen Gen1us use it a ton of times and it also comboes on counterhit.
Another reason why I mentioned this move is because u can mix it up with his d+1,4,2.
And even RIP himself mentioned these moves when he was doing the Paul phoenix tutorial.
Yes it can be sidestepped but did u know that 70% of all the moves in the game can be sidestepped (maybe even more) :amazed:
That’s why there are full circular moves like qcb+4 en b+2 -__-

The second hit of 3, 2 can be ducked, and again I also mentioned that !
It is in my opinion still a move worth mentioning since that’s the only move he can use to punish Heihachi’s WS+4, 4.
Unless you’re godlike with his instant qcf+2 but that’s still a risk cause you can get launch punished with an EWGF if you mistime it and they block it.

qcf+3 is used for his mixups, and it has a great reach.
Yes it might be heavily punishable but only a fool is gonna duck when they see Paul coming forward with his qcf.
Paul has some damaging mid moves when he’s coming at you with his qcf, remember death fist and WS+3, 2 :wink:
U should only use it as a “poke” anyways, cause you can cancel his qcf to his DEMO man if you’re close enough nyways.

qcf+1+2 is only gonna work against newcomers, it’s only -12 on block and not that big of a deal if they block it since it can give you a whole combo on hit.
But still not something I would consider as one of his top 10 moves, because it loses his meaning after using it alot, to big of a startup and easy blockable. But that’s just me ofcourse :slight_smile:

And if you are having troubles with landing DEMO man consistantly then you need to work at it my friend. Force you’re opponent to the corner so they can’t backdash and you should have no problem landing your DEMO man.
And if you are in a open field where they backdash alot then use your qcf+3. That will condition them to either stop backdashing or start blocking low. Which both goes to Paul his favor :wink:

Still like I’ve said in the beginning, it is all heavy debatable, some people have more succes with these set of moves and other will have more succes with another set of moves.
The easiest way to succes is to mix it up and be as random as possible :wink:

EDIT: I’ve just read your other comments, probably should’ve done that first lol :sweat:
U mentioned that you can’t use demo man against backdashers and need to use qcf+3. So you’re basically contradicting yourself a bit, cause first you said that qcf+3 is not that usefull and a stupid gamble but then a couple of post later you give qcf+3 as a viable option against backdashers. :razzy:

sigh

Just because your ss+3 haven’t been blocked by nobody never ever doesn’t mean it’s unblockable, I can list you a million lows that keep the character standing while being a low attack, there’s nothing ambigious about it at all. It’s still slow and is telegraphed by you doing a side step, but it’s still an ok move to do once in a while.

And yes, b+2 is barely safe, what can you do from -9? Generally the fastest moves are jabs at 10f, atlhough Yoshi flash is still 6f i belive, but it only works on CH. Anyway, you can do nothing else but block, your opponent is free to do whatever they want. What’s the reward? Potentially CH launch, normal hit just knockdown. But now that he has qcb+4, what’s the point? It does exactly the same thing, only it’s high, but it’s well worth it. I’ve seen koreans struggling to launch that move after ducked, it recovers so fast. So b+2 is more useless now than it was in 6.

D+1,2 without CH is nothing but a gimmick, belive me, it’s just side step bait if your opponent reads you right. And d+1,4,2? I laughed that time too when Rip said it was good as a mixup, and I’m laughing now too, that fucking string doesn’t do shit ever since they ruined it from DR to 6. Supposedly the mixup is d+1,2 or d+1,4, it’s a totally useless mixup since d+1,2 isn’t NC, and nobody is going to duck after d+1, d+1,4 isn’t NC either and it’s like -5 on hit so again, they are not going to duck after d+1 no matter what, what would be the point? D+1,4 is NCC, but d+1,4,2 isn’t, and the 2 part at the end is -16 on block, oh and d+1,4 is about the same as demoman on block eg. -30. Shit mixup, shit string, no use for it outside of wall comboes. Ridiculous.

3,2 the only thing that can punish Mishima tsunami kick? What are you talking about, first off tsunami is -15 on block, 3,2 is 16f, so it doesn’t punish shit, and second you can launch it every time with either df+2 or b+3 unless they spaced it very well, and even then you can get d+1+2 which does more damage + knockdown.

Only a fool may try to duck if they see Paul coming at with duck, but only a fool would do qcf+3 from an advancing duck anyway because as said it’s -20 on block for literally no reward. What you do with this move is that you space it so that only the tip of Paul’s foot hits or is blocked so that most of the time it can’t be punished. Sure, you lose your precious +1 of advantage at long range, but I’ll say again that +1 isn’t much in the first place, your opponent is pretty much free to take whatever defensive action they see fit at this situation, usually it being doing a side step since Paul is linear as hell. BTW, ws+3,2 cannot be done out of duck, only if you’re in FC like normal. B+4 is a much safer alternative for qcf+3 while still being +1 on hit, use that if you must do a low which gives you advantage.

Qcf+1+2 was never mentioned at being a top move, it’s pretty shit due to said slowness. Low parry bait.

And yes, thanks for repeating what I said earlier; Demoman only works if your opponent’s back is against the wall. But qcf+3 won’t stop them from backdashing nor make them block low, why the hell would they as Paul has more damaging mid options and qcf+3 is nothing to be scared about, like mentioned above. And yes, I did say over and over again that qcf+3 is not a good move, but viable against backdasher because that’s honestly all he can do against backdashers, his lows are so shit that he has nothing better, unless you want to put yourself at risk and charge recklessly head on toward your opponent to land some other crap low move he has.

Seriously, how long have you played Paul? Or how long have you’ve played Tekken generally? Have you ever played against someone really good offline, maybe at a tournament? Your attitude coming off from that post is so full of yourself yet your advice is pretty pathetic. Your milage may vary yes, and some of the junk you do can work against unaware or less skilled opponents, but it’s still the general high level consensus that Paul is still a lacking and low tier character because as I’ve said, while he does get better at each new game, the problem is that so does everyone else so he’s always lagging behind and stays the way he is; not that good.

uhm, I don’t think that you are actually reading everything I post lol.
I still don’t understand how u can say barely safe when it IS safe, almost every attack gives u negative frames on block, so you should rarely keep on attacking after every move u dish out. It’s more about spacing, poking, blocking and punishing.

I cannot discuss with you about the d+1,2 gimmicks. U don’t like it and I do, It has always helped me when I needed it .
So sorry if some moves work out for me and not for you I guess…

You’re hella wrong about the** 3,2** and mishima part and this is something I can say with certainty, these are not opinions but more or less “facts”.
First of all according to the frame data on avoiding the puddle, 3,2 has 15 frames startups, and It CAN punish heihachi his WS+4,4 test it out in training mode yourself, I did it yesterday night.
You can’t launch them consistently with df+2 and b+3 cause WS+4,4 gives a decent amount of pushback…
So in short Paul has 2 reliable ways to punish it, either by 3,2 or by d+1+2.
3,2 deals 39 damage and gives u +7 frames on hit.
d+1+2 has 12 frames of startup, deals 36 damage and gives u a knockdown. It is much easier to do, but depending on what u want wether it be a knockdown or frame advantage those are your “best” options.

Yes you can do a WS+3,2 out of a qcf, u simply hold df and then go to neutral while inputting 3, 2. I mean a couple of posts above is someone complaining about the fact that he’s getting WS moves when he’s trying to do Paul his qcf+2.

And to answer your questions.
I’ve been playing tekken since tekken 2 with Paul as my main character. I was at my best in Tekken 5 since I could play with almost half the cast.
I’ve been trying to play more serious with the release of Tekken 6, that’s where I started to look up frame data and whatnot. But due to the low quality of online play I had stopped playing it after a couple of months.
Now with the release of TTT2 I’m trying to pick up Tekken again, but now as one of my main fighters.
No I’ve never played tekken in a tournament, and yes I’ve played against some good players. Doesn’t necessarily main that everything I say is golden or anything.
I am not that great of a tekken player, just average. But I do have a lot of fighting game experience.

I am not full of myself, I am just trying to give some advice and contribute to the community. As I’ve said before, these things are heavily debatable. Every character in the game has roughly 100 moves, so it’s almost impossible that people are gonna agree with everything listed in a “top 10” move.
I am just giving my list and explaining why I think they are usefull that’s all.

You are however far too aggressive and not really contributing at all. You are just bashing everything that gets posted and dare I say it, whining like a little kid.
It doesn’t really matter if you are really good or really bad. Maybe I am just easier pleased than you, and I don’t really need that much tools to be satisfied and content.
To me Paul is a great and easy to pick up character. I’ve never considered him low tier and always considered him one of the strongest fighter in the game, story wise and gameplay wise.
His spot on the recent tier list is imo well deserved :slight_smile:

I give up.

Ral, chill, just because someone shoots down your strategies doesn’t mean they are trying to cause personal beef with you, just because something works against your best local opponents, doesn’t neccessarily mean it will work against everyone, or even against a fair amount of people.

Dunno about the majority here but I’d rather have holes in what I thought were good strategies pointed out before I get into the habit of implementing them,** it’s not an** attack on anyone, its a favour.

Anyway, back on topic, been getting some milage on db+1+2 lately against more turtly players, I know you are at neutral after a normal throw is teched so I’m assuming the only risk here is getting it stuffed, or the arm lock broken if I do that instead of ultimate punishment, this sound about right?

It depends on the throw what advantage/disadvantage both players are left with if it’s broken, it’s rarely neutral though. Also, ultimate tackle is pretty silly; it’s slow so it can be broken or reversed on reaction easily, some characters have punch/arm bar reversal, ultimate punishment always starts with 2 so it’s predictable, and you can’t mix it up with arm bar because it can be escaped/reversed easily by just mashing 1+2. Just use normal throws if they just stand all day, Paul’s 1+3, df+1+2 and ff+1+2~5 are all great throws, all lead to a very good oki game. If you have them cornered, you can W! them with ff+1+2 or df+1+3:qcf+2 for a wall combo.

Not really sure if you are talking about me.
I’m not trying to cause beef with anyone, what made you think that ?

You are right, holes needs to be pointed out. But there is a difference between pointing out bad things and calling them “shit”.
Besides most of the top 10 moves I listed came from a “Tekken6 Top 10 list” that I had read sometime ago on Tekken zaibatsu. I’ve always started using most of those moves ever since.
Even the ones that I thought that were pretty crappy, like his d+1 shenanigans.
Paul hasn’t been changed since, so his top 10 list shouldn’t change by a lot either, and most of the Paul player in tournament use most of the top 10 moves I posted.

Btw I was exaggerating/joking when I said Paul is one of the strongest in the game. It’s just to show people how much I like Paul and It’s also the reason why I play him in SFxTK and consider him viable and dangerous if u underestimate him.
He’s easy to pick up, but he’s not that easy to win with. Cause he is very lineair and he can’t rely on scrubby (most of the time dangerous) tactics that would lead to big damage. Like for example Bryan his df+3 >.>
But I thought everyone here already knew that about Paul, he’s been in Tekken since Tekken 1, and he’s never been changed drastically so he doesn’t really have any trick cards, everyone knows what to expect from him.

But still, I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended and for the miscommunication along the way.

Ow and yeah, you should stop using ultimate tackle I think :stuck_out_tongue:
For the same reasons yomi posted. Plus you can easily get hopkicked XD
And just like yomi said use ff+1+2 against the wall :wink:
That’s so cheap if your opponent doesn’t know how to break throws, it can easily lead into 100 damage.

yomi what would you say are paul’s top 10 moves?

Just some quick thoughts, but I don’t think his lows suck that much to be honest.

qcf+3 is good because a lot of people are scared to duck against Paul because of the threat of all his beefy mids. That and it tracks well.

d/b+3 and d/b+4 don’t do respectable damage, but are decent chip lows that high crush. “Unseeable” too.

b+4 gives you +1 so you can at least throw a single jab afterwards if they try to retaliate. I say single jab because they could always throw a high crush move like Nina d+3,2 or something.

ss+3 is also + on hit, and I’ve noticed you can also “mask” it by doing d/f+1~b~u~3. If you do this fast enough, you won’t even see a sidestep motion after you cancel sway and he’ll do the low. Works well after d/f+1~b because they’ll be expecting qcb+2.

Demo man…is well demo man lol.

qcf+1+2 you might hit once in a blue moon (or a lot if we’re talking online), but otherwise it’s not good.

He doesn’t have anything as annoying as Bruce’s or Bryan’s lows, but I think he’s straight.

When my opponent is in the corner and I’ve hit them with b+4, I often use 2,3.
It combos on counterhit and it gives u a wallsplat, it is punishable on block tho (-12) but I’ve had alot of succes with it so far.

Just something you’d wanna use against online scrub players who just keeps attacking, lol XD

Don’t know about top 10, but df+2, safe launcher, do it over and over, df+1, safe 14f mid poke from which you can transition into the much buffed sway, which gives you advantage on block and the ability to force a mixup (sway 4 for mashers, sway 2 for duckers, sway 3,2,1 for jabbers, or just ss cancel into anything else), deathfist, easy whiff punisher for a healthy chunk of damage + run oki, ff2:1, very long range mid poke that tracks, but good players will duck the second hit on block every time, so watch out, and if you must do lows then use ss+3, b+4 and db+3, sometimes you can do qcf+3 from max range, demoman, as said, becomes viable only at the wall. For punishment you have 1,2 for -10, d+1+2 or b+1,2 for 12f, b+3 for 14f and df+2, uf+4 or uf+3,4 for 15f, ws punishment ws4 for 11f, ws3,2 for 13f and ws+2 for 16f. These along with throws should get you far enough.

Paul’s top 10 movelist:

  1. Deathfist
  2. Deathfist
  3. Deathfist
  4. Deathfist
  5. Deathfist
  6. Deathfist
  7. Deathfist
  8. Deathfist
  9. qcf~Demoman
  10. qcf+4

I’m gonna close this down for now. If anybody wants to make an actual dedicated Paul thread with substantial content in the first posts, feel free too. But this is just a little too disorganized for me.