Whoa! That sounds really promising! j.MP seems a lot more buffed than I thought.
-accidental double post-
That’s great news!! It means this buff will be of a lot of help against Guile and Chun Li, too.
im just glad seth gets nerfed and we get delay wakeup against him thats honestly my worst matchup. dhalsim being a better match is awesome. i dont mind sagat match that much. i find guile worse but better u1 is 1f kinda gay hardly evne helps us. hope we dont lose ex hb then.
It was a hit/hurt box nerf. I couldn’t trip guard far jumpins with it anymore.
There was a Capcom rep walking around with all the change notes. He specifically told me they took out the HHS to Ultra combo. But again I didn’t test it from Extended HHS.
One thing I forgot to test was more projectile invincibility on Ex HB. My buddy who plays Ken did low mk xx fireball against a Honda and he Ex HB right through it. That can happen from close range normally but this was from very far. Don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up though.
If Honda gains 1f projectile invincibility on ex headbutt that’ll be a significant buff in the Sagat, Juri, Viper matchups. I don’t suppose you tried it on any of them?
i hit up mikeross and combofiend on twitter with the ex headbutt suggestion, seems like most people think the 8.5 square nerf is a good idea. not sure who else to hit up for that. even with that hondas still gonna be just solid mid tier maybe like ryu or guile
Hi Folks My name is Daniel and I also play with E.Honda on Xbox and GFWL
I hope they buff E.Honda since it is so hard to win a match. The damage back would be awesome.
EX HHS +5 it is a nice deal we just got, it will lead to big damages, I was talking to Mr Snk the other day, and we agreed that once we open the enemy with a jab, the show will start lol
I don’t understand the reason why they nerfed EX HB, it supposed to be safe since is a EX move.
on the other hand, faster f.HP with better Anti air hitbox would be perfect for the sumo.
i dont like ex hands because its easy to drop (and this really wont do much to fix that other than going ex to ex) i feel like the damage is not worth the meter spend.
everyone needs to get on twitter and hit up mike ross and combo fiend and tell them about the 8.5 square pushback the perfect amount of nerf, still down from 15 just outside the range of eryu cr mk and akuma sweep. guy can tatsu blanka can slide t hawk can punish with st hk or hp i believe so keeps our bad matches from getting worse. i hit thme up on friday we need to get this info out !!!
Or, you know… do it officially and post it on capcom unity like EmanuelB did.
There’s not much more you can do. Sure you can suggest it once against figureheads like Mike Ross and Combofiend, but it won’t do much good if we all tweeted him multiple times about it.
If ex headbut were to behave the same as say deejay ex kicks (wishful thinking i know) then i’d be happy to take the pushback nerf.
The ex hands buff is great, not sure if there were any associated damage nerfs but it really gives honda massive punish opportunities. Two frame links are not a problem, this should be every hondas go to punish for whiff dp’s etc.
Personally the U2 buff is the most important, that nerf into AE really took alot of the fun out of playing honda, there’s something about having the constant threat of a zero frame grab that makes all meta game situations much more interesting.
Ex oicho buff is great too, having to always block after is a serious weakness for a character.
Glad to see they addressed the hitbox of close fierce, that always seemed to whiff for no reason, would like to see it made +2 on block too, would really help the pressure game.
Buttslam and jump mk buffs sound good too, so sick of buttslam going into the opponents visible hitbox but not hitting them, wtf is that and jump mk did whiff weirdly.
All and all honda sounds alot more interesting in the next version and thank god for that because i don’t think were ever gonna beat sagat again, why the fk are the buffing that dumb ass character, as if random tiger knee wasnt already annoying enough. Also think Vega is going to be a big problem in Ultra if ex headbut stays punishable.
Good stuff, man, with the twitter. Hopefully, Combofiend will listen. I don’t have a twitter account, but I posted at Capcom-unity boards - there’s an official thread where you can voice your opinion.
As for Ex Hands - I just love this one. Hopefully, it will stay. As Stevo said, it opens up massive combo dmg. And the jewelman’s combos will be finally viable (so more damaging hit confirms). The meter management will become interesting - instead of always saving for Ex Hb, now we have to choose between offense or deffense. Honda will be lots of fun to play.
So, based on the info we have for now (thanks, Hoodaman), the changes for Honda so far are:
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Ex Headbutt pushback nerfed
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Ultra 2: 1.40 range, 1+0 start up, 720 motion
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Ultra 1: 9 fr start up (?) can’t combo from Hands
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Ex Oicho: 1-5 fr full invincible
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Jump Mp: hitbox/hurtbx buff
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st Hk: -6 on block (?) and a hitbox/hurtbox nerf (?)
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far st Hp: +10 dmg (90)
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cl Hp: upward hitbox increased
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jump Mk: +1 active frames
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Buttslam: +1 active frames (?)
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Ex Hands: +1 hitstun (= +5)
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Mp Headbutt: safer (-10 on block ?)
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Possible: more fireball invincibility for Ex Headbutt (unconfirmed)
I like how Honda looks for now. I hope the buffs will stick. Based on this, my thoughts:
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Ex Hb: slightly increase the pushback, so Sagat, Akuma and Chun Li can’t punish it (talked above about it)
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U1: I would like it to be a little faster. I’m fine with the removal of hands-combo, but maybe 9fr start up, or at least 10 fr start, and traveling speed increased after the animation.
(this way we might still be able to combo into Ultra on a few characters, maybe chrouching, maybe with extended hands. Would be very fun, and not as strong as having a hands-ultra combo on most of the cast) -
st Hk: the nerf seems to me pretty pointless, should be removed, imo. But if it sticks, at least make it 0 on hit, so Chun and Ryu can’t punish us with Super on hit.
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far Hp: the dmg change should be only from the 4th active frame - otherwise, is a damage nerf.
Everything else is great and hopefully they will remain.
If I may request something more:
- cr Hk: start up reduced from 14fr to 11 fr; active frames increased by 1 (->3)
- Shikofumi (stomp): start up reduced by 6fr (->24), and cancelable frames changed to 9-26
Both moves are completely useless right now.
And if I’m extra greedy (or Capcom is highly generous):
- Hp Hands: blockstun increased to +6, like in Super
- Oichos: not cross up on hit
Finally, some stuff regarding the possible Ex Headbutt having more fireball inv.:
This is a controversial topic, many people are against the idea of Honda’s headbutts being able to go through projectiles (it’s unhonda like, etc). It’s the reason I never brought up this idea, but I thought about it.
As you may already know, Capcom gave Mp Headbutt 2 fr of fireball invincibility (is fireball inv. until the 10th frame) - so basically the first 2 active frames are fb inv.
As you may also know, this is not of much help at all. Mp Hb can’t pass through fireballs unless they are very fast and done meaty, so it’s pretty useless.
The reason why this is useless, is because the first 2 active frames moves Honda very little forward (checking the hitbox videos, thanks Angerus). The 3rd active frame also moves Honda very little forward. Only on the 4th active frame Honda moves forward more significantly.
So, basically, in order for a headbutt to be a usefull tool against fireballs, it would need the first 4 active frames to be covered by fb inv. -> in case of Ex Hb, it would mean 11 fr of fb invincibility, while in Lp Hb’s case, 16 fr of fb inv.
Since Ex Hb is really fast, it might work even with less. But in my opinion, if Capcom decides to go this route, Lp Headbutt should get fireball invincible frames, not the Ex - Lp Hb is slower and moves less distance, so is not as strong (of course, I won’t say no to Ex Hb having it).
I asked a friend of mine to test this with Onotool, and this what were the results:
- Lp Headbutt: added 16 fr of fireball invincibility (it covers the first 4 active frames):
What happens:
- It goes through all Ryu’s fireballs
- It can beat Ryu’s cr.mk xx hadouken if it’s not spaced well
- Dhalsim’s LP yoga fire requires a little precision but you can learn the spacing pretty fast
- MP and HP are very easy to go trough
- You can also beat Ryu’s super/ultra very easily
- And hit Dhalsim AFTER his U1 (so while the fireball appears, you will hit him and then the fireballs will it you)
I’m not sure what to say, this is still controversial, but…I kinda like the idea of a headbutt having more fb invincibility.
That is an interesting buff suggestion, but I’m not sure if this would be that fair.
I’m okay with it, if most or any character is able to punish Honda if he were to jab headbutt through a fireball from fullscreen or 3/4th of the screen.
The scary part about this buff is if we’re up close. It becomes more braindead to just always jab headbutt.
Most common and good case scenario, we’ll get a counterhit trade on almost anyone if done in footsie range I think.
Not only that, but medium headbutt buff will be hell for characters like Ken and Cody (who aren’t the best fireball characters).
They won’t be able to stop us anymore, other than backing off (what we obviously want) and neutral jumping if they smell something.
I’m for it since it will probably help against characters like Sagat and Guile (trade maybe?), but I can see a lot of complaints coming from this.
It deffinetelly requires some fine tuning. The idea would be only Lp Headbutt to get more fb inv, not Mp Hb.
And the fact that only the first 4 active frames are covered by invincibility will make it quite tricky to pass through fireballs - you can’t just throw it out there mindlessly, the fireball needs to be very close to you in order to pass through.
I remember talking with a HDR Honda player - he said the Lp Hb buff Honda got in hdr wasn’t much of a big deal, it can be countered easily.
Anyway, that was just a thought. The idea would be to have a usefull tool, but to still be difficult/require good timing/reaction to use.
I should have stated that I meant the buff MP headbutt gets from USF4.
There’s no reason to hold back against them, since it’s low invincible, they can’t punish it anymore with stepkick or ruffian kick and their fireballs have shitty startup.
That’s the main thing I’m worried and unsure about. I would very much like to see it in action before drawing more conclusions to it.
It may not beat the fireballs clean, but it may still be easy to trade with them since most characters their hurtboxes move forward during and after they perform a fireball, no?
Hmm. it might be. It should require some testing. Anyway, this is not on top of my priority. It just crossed my mind considering what Hoodaman said about Ex Hb possibly having more fb invincibility.
was just looking at that jewelman combo video.
seems like you can get a 450dmg off a jump in (it was a neutral jump in the video not sure if it works with jump forwards) off 1 bar. starting to seem pretty worth it to me if you can actually get an extra 100dmg for 1 bar. hit 2 of those and seth is dead. not to mention the oicho resets.
i seem to have a problem hitting the last HHS in the sequence more often than not, so with this buff it will be much more tournament viable. i know coungster was saying this was the reason he didn’t use it.
This is what http://shoryuken.com/2013/12/28/ultra-street-fighter-iv-capcom-cup-build-change-list/ listed for E.Honda so far:
E.Honda
Close Standing HP hitbox expanded upward
Far Standing HP tip damage increased from 80 to 90
Far standing HK changed from -7 to -6 on block; hitbox slightly expanded forward
Diagonal Jump MP hurtbox slightly reduced
Diagonal Jump MK active frames extended by 1F
EX Sumo Headbutt pushback on block reduced
EX Oicho Throw now completely invincible from 1-5F
EX Hundred Hand Slap changed from +4 to +5 on hit
Super Killer Head Ram (Super Combo) start-up reduced from 11F to 8F
Orochi Breaker (UC2) start-up reduced from 2F to 1F; throw range increased from 1.16 to 1.4; input command changed to 720+PPP
what do you think guys???