When you look at the frame table, you will find that the startup frame for super using light punch is 1+8 frames. It is impossible to combo with it after HHS
I hope the start up frame of Ultra 1 is same as the stand roundhouse ie. 7 frames. If it is not, it just link ex HHS into croach weak punch. It is very risky to do the combo and will be punished by the opponents.
I also hope that ex headbutt can be passed through all fireballs. Those characters release slow fireballs can play turtle, honda cannot jump in to cause them damage.
i hope all the damage level can be returned to SUPER level. Stand round house, Stand Hard Punch, HHS, weak headbutt is 140. medium 150, strong headbutt 150. Reduce the recovery frames of headbutt, so that it cannot be punishable. Stand round house can be knocked down somebody is a very good suggestion. More safejumps can be set.
I disagree, I think it would be fair for Honda to get his dmg back.
Those nerfs were stupid and uneeded in the first place. Honda was not broken in Super, he wasn’t even among the best characters in Super. A tier list at the end of Super placed him on 8th spot, and he never won a major in Super. People just complained about charge characters and Capcom decided to nerf them.
Second, his dmg nerfs were silly. These nerfs affected mostly Honda’s offense, and the characters that have trouble with Honda - Blanka, Guy, Dudley, etc - have trouble with honda’s deffense and his db. These nerfs didn’t help them much, but instead made Honda’s bad matches worse.
Third, Honda is supposed to have big dmg, he always had. He doesn’t have a comeback factor, and he can’t win a round after a kd (no vortex). His mixusps are not stelar, so dealing big dmg is the way he wins.
I think giving back some of Honda’s dmg is what Capcom should do if they want to make honda better:
far Hp: +30 dmg from the 4th frame (110). Right now far Hp deals less dmg than far Mp, which is plain stupid. Plus, it has 10 fr start up, it shuld hurt when you land it.
Hp Hands: +21 dmg (126). It dealt 140 dmg in Super. Is Honda’s main offensive move, it should hurt when you land it.
Oicho: +20 dmg for normal versions (180-190-200) - back the way they were in Super. Again, an offensive tool, used to open up people.
This will make Honda’s offensive power more potent, and help him a lot in his bad matchups. His favourable match ups won’t be that affected, since in those matchups Honda wins mostly by downbacking.
Plus, don’t forget that those characters also get nice buffs (bison new cancelable normals, Guy a buff to his TC - big stuff).
And Sagat/Guile/Chun Li/Sim are also getting buffed quite hard - especially Sim and Chun. I see no reason why Honda shouldn’t be, too.
Oicho: +20 dmg for normal versions (= 180-190-200), Oichos don’t crossup the opponent on hit (Honda stays on the same side)
Ex Oicho: increase the range to 1.65, OR add +5 strike invincible frames and reduce the range to 1.20
This is essential for Honda to be competitive in my oppinion, anything else is extra.
Optional:
Since a lot of people complained about Headbutts, I came up with a solution:
Hp Headbutt: less knockback on block, increase recovery frames by 1 (= -17 on block); decrease startup by 2 frames (= 6), slightly increase the traveling speed, +10 dmg from the 3rd active frame (=150)
Mp Headbutt: decrease recovery by 1 frame (= -12 on block), add 1 lower body strike invincible frame (= 11), increase the size of the hitbox
This way fierce Hb will be less annoying at low level, less random hbs, and at high level Hawk and Juri will be able to punish it. As a trade off, fierce Hb should be a better punish/ whiff punish tool, and Mp Hb should be slightly better for pressure.
So = Lp - antiair, Mp - pressure, Hp - punish, Ex - all purpose.
Eventhubs is going to do an interview with Ross and it’ll delve into subjects like E Honda’s ranking, buffs he’d like to see in USF4 and a good bit more.
I’ve already a good idea of what Mike thinks of Honda and wants for him, listening him talk on Ultrachen tv and reading his reddit Q&A posts. (http://www.reddit.com/r/SF4/comments/1kpm9k/my_name_is_miguel_percyfauntleroy_rossington_iv/ )
So 9/10 I’m pretty sure Mike wants DAMAGE for Honda and thinks that Honda is the worst or bottom 3 character in the game.
Xian, UltraDavid and Chen agree with Honda being terrible, btw.
Some Mike reddit answers I found funny;
Spoiler
*Q: Xian put Honda bottom-of-the-barrel tier in his recent list, thoughts on this? I’ve alted Honda since Super and while I know how booty he can be, I can’t accept him being that low (in b4 Mike “Downplay” Ross). *
A: It’s accurate, HONDA SUCKS. When I say it, people say "shut up he’s a 142/10. When Xian says it, people are like “DUH HONDAR SUXX! CUZ DA SHIEEEN SAY SO!” I hate you all.
Q: Out of all the new characters coming in USF4, who do you think will be honda’s best and worst matchups?
A: He will once again, have no good matchups
Q: what changes are you looking for E.Honda in Ultra
A: DAMAGE, but he wont get that. They wanna keep him garbage.
Q: I heard people say you had bad executions comparing to other players, Do you agree with that? if not, what area of your gameplay you feel you should improve in order to win tournaments?
A: lol, no I don’t agree. I could improve on PICKING BETTER CHARACTERS.
Q: Mike, how come you don’t switch to blanka when you are getting heavily zoned out? Do you not believe in Mike Ross?
A: I’m too stubborn to switch sometimes
Q: Why do you think Honda is a bad character? He has great normals, solid damage, invincible reversals that are safe on block, good mobility, good air-to-airs. Would you be fine if they’d buff his damage, increase the invincibility on EX Headbutt, but made every reversal he has punishable on block? And I’m not talking about the lame -2 that buttslam is, but properly unsafe.
A: He has great normals? Have u seen ryus? balrogs? yun? akuma? the list goes on. Invincible reversals??? OPTION SELECTS!? Honda sucks.
He thinks honda is bottom 5, and he would like to return him to his Super version.
But one thing I don’t understand: he says he would like Headbutt to be reverted to the way it was in Super - I’m not sure what he is reffering to, since Capcom already changed the nerf - they gave us back the upper body invincibility.
Is it any other nerf for Lp Hb that I’m not aware of ? I checked the frame data from Super and the hitbox, and there’s no change. Only the dmg was lowered.
They did give lp hb’s upper body invincibility back, but iirc it had much better AA invulnerable hitboxes in super and thus could be used as a reliable AA and anti poke tool.
Now, lp headbutt likes to trade more often against characters that have good angled jump attacks (Cody, Bison, Blanka, Sakura,…).
I’m not entirely positive about this, though.
It would be nice to have AE2012 hitboxes at our disposal to take a look at this.
Hmm, I checked the hitbox from Super (the torrent you posted) and compared with the hitbox from AE (eventhubs images) - and I haven’t seen any difference. I don’t know, maybe they did something in v.2012 ?
The hitboxes are the same. Jab headbutt was a pretty bad AA in super if they had a deep jumpin attack or were landing in front. Remembering otherwise means you’ve got some rose tinted glasses. It works just as well as before on crushing high attacks like rog’s dash straight, Fei’s rekka ken, etc.
Yeah, I feel the same. On the other hand, I discovered some hitbox nerfs I wasn’t aware of, comparing Super/AE:
jump fw HP: capcom added a hefty hurtbox below the hitbox.
far Mk: they added a chunk of hurtbox above his arm
cr Lp: they slightly extended the hurtbox forward (but not much, still has great priority, so it’s not noticeable)
cr Hp: same, they extended the hurtbox
cr Hk: I’ m not sure on this one, since the difference is small, but it seems they also extended the hurtbox
All versions of Hands had the hurtbox slightly extended
far HK: they extended the hitbox forward - that looks like a nice buff we’ve got.
This is what I found by comparing hitboxes. Now I’m not 100% sure, so I’m curious if you guys noticed these differences in play (especially those of you that were more active in Super).
One thing that I really don’t understand is why did they nerf far Mk - this move has very little use, was it really better in Super ?
Indeed EmanuelB, on closer inspection I’ve compared all hitboxes with the old ones to check if you missed anything, but I agree with most of what you mentioned, except cr.HK.
far standing MK got **nerfed **from Super to AE2012.
Big chunk of hurtbox added on top of his arm so it’s easier for the opponent to jump in, fs.mk works less as an AA.
far standing HK got buffed.
Hitbox got extended forward so it has more reach.
forward jump HP got nerfed.
Gigantic new chunk of hurtbox added (below and in front) so it’s easier to anti air and air to air it.
crouching LP got nerfed.
Hurtbox got moved more upward and forward. Hitbox got moved inward so it’s inside his hand instead of in front of it.
crouching HP got nerfed.
Hitbox got moved inward so the hitbox is inside his fist instead of infront of it.
I actually still use fs.mk for it’s a good AA to beat air attacks that have vertical hitboxes or dive attacks in general.
Specifically;
One of Honda’s valuable tools to keep M.Bison out if you have no meter and don’t want to trade with his j.HP. fs.MK beats it clean if spaced well
I also use it against all versions of T.Hawk’s condor dive if I have no charge, am too scared to jump and he seems to have the tendency to condor dive right at my feet.
All of Yang’s divekicks on reaction (but you can litterally use all other normals, his divekick is a joke and slow)
All of Yun’s divekick. I used to fs.HP all of yun’s divekicks, but fs.HP is a bit too slow and I prefer to react AA it with fs.MK
Blanka’s j.HK if I have no meter for EX hb
Not Vega
I haven’t tested this yet on Cammy, Rufus or any other character with a dive, but I’ve seen Mike Ross try and attempt to AA K-Brad’s cannon strikes.
At the start of the round it seems he’s trying to AA with fs.mk.
At the very start of the 2nd round, Mike walks up and does close standing MK and cleanly AA’s Cammy.
2nd match 2nd round 4:41 Mike tries to AA with fs.MK again, but he did it too early.
at 4:55, post oicho, I have no idea what kind of setup mike was going for, cr.HP os ultra??
i see it is up to debate whether far st hp is more or less damage as apparetnly it currently only hits for 80 damage at certain ranges (i believe as an AA?) but does 120 from others. lets hope its a buff! i dont think that the nerf on ex headbutt is too crazy it will still be a mega safe reversal against majority of the cast i think it is very free at the moment and maybe a bit unfair will still blow up red focus etc.
I think some things help way more than others i see they arent starting u1 faster just starting super faster instead which i dont think is gonna make too much difference but i see there is gonna be no hhs into u1
the cross up is good the oicho options are fucking amazing helps massively and the jump mp helps against zoners big time. with the seth nerfs i think we are gonna be able to do way better in our bad matchups. if that prox OS tech works against dhalsim the way people are saying we could eliminate 90% of our bad matchups.
Honda’s far Hp now does 120 dmg in the first 3 active frames, and 80 dmg in the last 3 active frames. The only time you got the whole 120 dmg is if the opponent is really close to you, or as an antiair from a very specific angle.
Right now we don’t know if the 90 dmg change applies for the whole duration, or only on the later half. But even in the worst case scenario, if the move does 90 dmg the whole time, it’s mostly a buff, because in footsies you will always get 90 dmg instead 80, and that’s great. I was hoping for more dmg, but…
As for Ex Hb - they say now Vega can punish it with cr mp - but his cr mp has an awesome range and is 4fr start up - so unless Capcom nerfed the knockback big time, not many characters will be able to punish us. Plus, this nerf is ok considering Ex oicho buff.
Regarding the buffs:
Ex Oicho is awesome. No more saje jumps on Honda. Also good on offense.
U2: same, really good. We will be able to punish a TON of stuff with it.
jump Mp: very good. It will be a huge help against Guile, Sim and Chun Li.
far Hk is a nice buff - Fei long no longer will be able to punish far hk with rekkas, neither Chun Li with Ultra.
cl Hp - I’m surprised with this one - we will have a better antiair, nice.
Crossup: Again, surprised. I guess it will be more consistent
Super: meh. Better against fireballs, but… how many times does Honda have a super against fireballers ?
Splash: huh ? more active frames ? Not sure how much will help, but thank you.
All in all, it’s looking good. One thing to note - these might not be all of the changes, so we still might get more…
