Who remembers jumping mp? Oh yes, fond memories indeed. Oh and almost forgot I think both v honda and s honda could go through dhalsim fireball with hp headbutt. <FUCK YES. TBH I would like that back. If they didnt do that for us against sagat that mu would horrible now. Why not the same against dhalsim?
Honda’s backdash is really poor, so not something I’m missing. Also, I’m pretty sure Lp Headbutt and Ex Hb had the invincibility in vanilla - I checked the frame data and there was no difference - anybody remembers from vanilla if Ex Hb/lp Hb were worse ?
all in all honda doesn’t really change much when you break it all down, i wouldn’t really play the character any different. You just have that fear of eating retarded damage off an EX headbutt that you didn’t have before. we got basically no useful buffs that allow for new opportunities to approach people, basically just forces us to turtle more. I really hope they revert that ex headbutt nerf, it’s honestly the dumbest shit ever, all honda’s damage is gone as is at least give us back one option for safee pressure. they think because they have taken away safe DP FADC then they have to take away the ex headbutt.
Yea, disregard what I mentioned about the backdash, that only happened since AE.
About the headbutts (jab at least), I thought it really was a buff Honda gained and what made him really strong in Super.
I also found it written in a compilation changelist on the wiki, but as you can see it’s obviously missing some key buffs/nerfs and so is incomplete.
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Changelist_StreetFighterIV#E._Honda
E:
also found it on Iplaywinner:
'Light Punch and EX Sumo Headbutt have a few more frames of invincibility.'
lol @ all the people saying he was broken in Super, he wasn’t even as good as he is now really
I just remembered something. Since it’s vanilla Honda, we’ll have our short jump command back!
I’ll be at Final Round location test, playing Honda and Makoto all weekend. Post up anything y’all want me to test. I’ll make a list.
I’ve seen that changelog, too, but is horribly incomplete, so I’m not sure what to think. A much better way is to just check the frame data:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Street_Fighter_IV/E._Honda
Frame data from vanilla - Ex Headbutt is listed with 1-8 fr invincible, and Lp Hb 1-14~ something (my guess is the upper body invincibility). I’m still not 100% sure, so I will be eager to test it.
As for Super Honda, the reason why he was good in Super is not because he was buffed (he wasn’t), but mostly because he wasn’t nerfed that hard, while the top tiers were nerfed hard (Sagat, Akuma, Seth, Ryu). Also 10 new characters were introduced, and most of them were good matches for Honda. These combined made Honda pretty good in Super.
But I’m still curious about headbutts in vanilla, if there were any changes…
Also, Angerus, what short jump command ? I’m not familiar with it (I haven’ played vanilla much) Was anything good ?
In Vanilla, everyone was able to do a short jump or so I’ve read/remember. It was performed by doing a neutral jump and quickly holding upforward afterwards.
This was removed for all characters except Zangief. I myself never tried it out, though.
Damage wise Vanilla Honda is #1
The rest are pretty much the same damage wise, i dont think he lost anything big from super to AE2012 did he?
and then ability wise Ultra or AE2012 Honda would actually be better than Super, and then original AE would be his shittiest version.
Wasn’t there 1 version where FP headbutt was the anti-air used??
I don’t recall that. As for losing from Super to AE: beside dmg, U2 became 0+1 instead 1+0 start up, jump Mp and jump Hp hitbox was nerfed, and Hp Hands blockstun went from +6 to +3. all pretty big blows for Honda.
If jab headbutt and ex headbutt were indeed the same in vanilla compared to super, then there’s little reason not to pick Vanilla Honda against the majority if the cast.
Medium headbutt had upper body invincibility and Jab headutt had lower body invincibility in AE2010.
Slick rick, that would be great. I have a couple of things I would like you to try - if you can test them, it’s great:
- First, try to see if the following characters can punish a blocked Ex Headbutt:
- try Vega with cr Mp, then try far st Lp
- try Zangief far st Mk
- Chun Li with far st Hp
- Akuma with sweep
- Evil Ryu with cr Mk
This should give us an idea how bad is the nerf.
-
Try using Lp Headbutt to go through a fireball - try Ryu’s Ex Fb - do you feel is easier, or the same ?
Try use Ex Headbutt against fireballs (against Sagat, or Ken’s cr mk xx Fb) - do you feel an improvement ? -
Use Lp Headbutt as an antiair - see if you feel an improvement - try it against Balrog’s jumpins, or Vega, etc
-
Try to see if Ken can still punish a blocked Mp Headbutt with step kick (he needs to block it standing)
-
Try using Honda’s jump Mp - do you feel any improvement ? - try it against Guile/Dhalsim/Chun Li
-
Try Ex Hands - how is the link after it, is it easier ? Did Ex Hands become punishable on block ?
-
Use Ex Oicho - try to see if it has something - test it for throw invincibility; see if it can absorb 1 hit; compare it with Lp Oicho range - did they improve the range ?
-
Use Oichos - they still switch sides on hit ?
-
Try Ultra 1 against fireballs - do you feel is faster, better ?
-
Try doing cr jab xx hands - st hk against Guile: how does st hk connects, is it an improvement ? (now sometimes it doesn’t connect)
This what I would like. I know is a lot, but if you can try at least some of them, it would be great. Thank you
I had a conversation with DannyBoyPeru a week or 2 ago, regarding Honda’s j.MP in USF4. The question boiled down to; Will Honda’s j.MP in ultra be better than S.Honda’s j.MP?
I’d love to discuss this with you guys and share your points of view on this, anyways this is what I said at the time to Danny;
In Super I believe it was only good against opponents who were directly beneath Honda, during its early startup frames, but not against opponents who were farther away (at least during its latest active frames). It was also possible due to this to cross up easier with j.MP.
from Super to AE they relocated the hitbox more vertically so it beats air to airs better, opponents that are far away from Honda and most importantly opponents beneath Honda during j.MP’s latest active frames.
Super j.MP:
Take note that it’s only really good at its first/early startup frames.
It loses its effectiveness and was NOT good against anti airs that are farther away from Honda during its latter frames (it will always lose against Guile’s s.HP). It’s only really good at this point vs opponents that are close to Honda and beneath him. It can also cross up.
AE j.MP:
This is great as an air to air during its early active frames but also works well against anti airs and opponents that are beneath and farther away from Honda during its latest active frames (can’t show an image of that sadly, but it can beat or trade with Guile’s s.HP and beat his Back Knuckle)
USF4 j.MP
They will reduce the hurtbox more inward. This will benefit it more as an air to air and beating anti airs.
So, in Ultra, I think It’s better than Super and Improved.
You just can’t cross up as easily with it anymore and should attempt to connect with it during its 3rd or onward active frames if the opponent is very close (or directly beneath you).
Finally… I am about to Hit " Grand Master " with E.Honda <3
heh, I hit GM a couple of weeks ago. I don’t think I’m going to try to do it again when Ultra drops.
Emanuelb, all of that should be fairly easy to test. I’ll do my best and post next week.
So whats up? Are people still mad or what?
Personally, I think USF4 Honda will be good. Remember that we can combo into both ultras with 3 bars(Hands -> EX Focus Attack -> Ultra 1/2).
I think that is pretty strong.
The problem is, every single character will have that option, too, it’s not Honda’s specific. I will wait for FR to see the latest changes and what Slick Rick will tell us, then I think we will have a better image
Why would you think Honda would be better than he is in AE2012? The only (significant) 2 buffs he’s getting is his jump mp and his U2 range increase.
Other than that, Ex hands getting a nerf (on block), ex headbutt getting a nerf, U1 didn’t get the love it deserved, just a frame faster than now. He loses all of his safe pressure, and his cr. lp xx hands can be red focused now. He wasn’t good before, he’s getting the nefbat? Yes people are mad.