I only want them to fix sumo splash hitbox.
Right now it is totally unreliable as an antir air and most the time honda will just rub the opponent dealing no damage at all.
Having fixed at least the fp version will be fine since it already have disadvantages like being focusable and punishable by quick moves like shoryukens
Low forward xx Ex hands, jab xx strong hands, low forward xx fierce headbutt does 464 damage. Perhaps you get more damage off of a Jewelman-link somewhere, whatever.
I attended a tournament in San Antonio today. Grand finals was Jewelman versus myself. He beat me without resetting, 3-2. Last time we played, I won. We tend to go back and forth. During our matches today, both vs. each other and against other people, both Jewelman and myself would occasionally go for combos with Ex hands somewhere in them. I think I landed all 3 that I went for throughout the day. It was a lucky/good execution day for me. During the finals, Jewelman missed one Ex combo against me upon linking into ex hands from fierce hands and got reversal ex butt dropped for his troubles. He landed a second, and went for a successful reset into Ochio on the third. These combos are doable if you put forth some effort. However, even execution wizards will occasionally miss a 1f link.
I can’t imagine a world where Honda is given +5 on ex hands and yet still gets to keep his monstrous damage. I would much rather keep ex hands in its current form than get easy to do combos that are long and deal no damage. Right now, hands is an interesting oddity. Going for the harder combos feels like a coin flip. I might hit it, I might not. The other guy knows this too, so he’s quite likely to mash out a reversal or a back dash. If Ex hands is buffed by even one frame of hitstun, anyone will be able to combo off of them more simply than linking fierce hands to fierce hands. That’s also a 2f link, only in the case of hands to hands the link is on the 5’th button press as opposed to the first.
Beyond all of that, +5 actually makes Ochio throw ticks a lot more troublesome. You can’t do them too early atm, do a tick as tight as possible and you can’t mess up. It’s annoying when you have to wait exactly 1 frame to get your setup to work, it stops being quite as naturally viable.
Ok, Ex Hands stays at +4 on hit. But I think maybe it should get some damage buffs - +14-21 dmg in order to make it more worth spending meter on.
I’m curious, Arthur, what do you think of M Hands- extended M Hands combos - curently these combos only work on 3-4 chars. I think it would be nice if they could work on more characters - making M Hands/ extended hands more usefull - basically nobody uses this right now.
I think if M Hands and extended hands would have less pushback, so honda gets closer to the opponent, these combos could be pulled of more reliable and on more characters.
For balance purpose I think the hitstun should be lowered with 1 frame for M (+7) and for extension M (+11) - so combo into U1 works more reliable and on more characters, but becomes a 1 frame link (more difficult).
I’m curious what would you think of this - I’m not that good so I have trouble pulling these combos, so I would like to hear an oppinion from a better player.
Regarding Ex Hands - I think your idea is very good - give it +5 invincible frames, but lower the range instead - I say, make the range 1.20, so ex has the least range of all Oichos. I compared to Abel’s Ex TT - which also has 5 frames start up, and 6 frames invincibility - Abel’s ex cmd throw has 1.27 range, so I think Honda’s ex would be fair with 1.20 range.
Plus - in the corner, Ex oicho doesn’t cross up (like in ST).
Also, regarding Shikofumi - why do you say about lowering the start up with 8 frames ? (making it 22). I compared it with Ken’s HK overhead, which has comparable damage - 120 - and 21 frames start, so making Shikofumi 22 should be fair, esp. since Ken has another overhead much faster. This way, Shikofumi should be more usefull, while still being very slow (so used on sparingly).
And about Stevo proposal - maybe adding +1 blockstun for H Hands ? (making +4) ?
Cr Mk xx hhs - Ex hhs - Cr Lp xx Ex hhs - Cr Lp hhs - hhs does 486 damage and works on approx a third of the cast, variations of this combo will work on the entire cast and while it uses two metres it gains 1.
Atm these combos are doable, so i’d prefer keeping the insane damage than making the links easier accompanied by the inevitable damage nerf.
+4 on blocked hhs might work, it needs to be advantaged enough that holding up, backdashing or mashing a 3-4 frame normal wont defeat the second hhs. Honda has no true strings and his cr lk is 5 frames so i dont think this is alot to ask.
U1 faster
Ex oicho knocks down for longer (like gief’s ex spd)
U2 720 1+0
Make st rh less negative on block
Close fierce to be activated further away from Honda.
That angry scar idea sounds like so much fun though
I think the problem here is the same problem with every “Buff my character!!!” thread. You’re doing too many comparisons between Honda and the rest of the cast. Ignoring everything else that makes Ken a different character than Honda, Honda’s overhead knocks down and can be late kara-canceled. Ken’s overhead is -2 on hit, Honda’s overhead gets him a knockdown with safe jump afterward. If Ken uses his roundhouse overhead on 'gief or thawk, he then gets a guaranteed jab spd. Any grab super in the game will punish him. When he hits on Any character it’s the same as if he’s put in any other -2 situation. Throws, uppercuts, standard pressure strings, the other guy has advantage, not a safe jump. You can’t just say “This character has a similar move to Honda, how come Honda’s is worse?” Ken is also a rushdown/mixup character. Honda is designed to be a wall (as little as other Honda players seem to want to play him like this). Ken doesn’t have a reversal that’s better than any throw tech at stopping throws and is -2 on block. Ken also doesn’t have long range pokes that whiff punish for 100, 140, or 540 damage with super meter. Ken doesn’t have any specials that deal chip, build tons of meter, and leave him at +3 advantage on block.
What you’re asking for is a bunch of buffs that don’t serve any purpose except “Man, Honda needs to be stronger!” There’s no thought behind them other than “This is hard for me to do, I’d rather it was easier,” and that’s the general problem with these threads. Honda doesn’t need an ex command grab with invincibility that has enough range to actually be used or any offensive purpose. When thinking about changing a character in a new version you should look at what the character has problems with and do something about that. Not just look for what’s convenient.
On the tier list you created, you put Honda as the 8’th best character in the game. I disagree with, uh, most of the list, but whatever. Assuming you honestly believe that the character is already just outside of top tier he shouldn’t be given crazy new tools that give him ridiculous options he didn’t have before. You should look at the matches he has problems with, decide why he has problems, then think up solutions. Afterward, you should look at the matches that are super easy. from there, think “Are the changes that I thought up going to make these matches worse for these guys?”
Guy versus Honda is the worst matchup in the game. Before requesting anything, ask yourself “Will this buff make the matchup any worse than it already is for Guy when Honda is sitting back on a life lead in a neutral position.” If the answer is yes, then Honda needs to not get the buff. Likewise, look at Thawk, Adon, Juri, Vega, Blanka, Sakura, and Gen and see if those matches are any worse.
Renda hands is +12, yeah. It’s not intended to actually be third step into combos involving Ultra 1. There’s a local Thawk player who I play at UFO with regularity. Anytime I get the opportunity (say, jumping a 360) I will then go for a combo into strong hands, renda hands, fierce headbutt/super. I think I’ve combod into U1 with it once, most rounds end as all Honda vs Thawk rounds are supposed to end with Honda having taken next to no damage. It’s a kinda fun combo, sure, but Honda isn’t supposed to just combo into his Ultra. Honda isn’t Ryu, he isn’t Rufus. Honda has tremendous damage off of his ordinary combos. His ultras are there for utility. He can also combo into ultra by landing AA 7’th hand near a corner, or AA downward hit of butt drop. These combos are mostly just fun combos, not intended for actually basing every hit you get into helping you land said ultra.
Furthermore, the way the combo is an unintended but fun consequence of the different reeling animations that some characters have. It works via the same mechanics that let Akuma do roundhouse, jab, roundhouse on Adon even though the loop was supposed to be out since Super. Also the same reason why Rufus is randomly able to dodge an attack during Fuerte’s RSF loop. It’s one of the neat quirks of the game and is better left that way. As much as Juri players would like for 2F link into low forward off of stand jab against all crouchers, the different characters heights will disallow such combos to work. Just have fun with the knowledge that against a small portion of the cast you can land really cool combos that are unintended.
If there was merely less pushback on strong hands, then the combo would probably cease to work at all (unless the pushback was a Lot less at which case all 10 hits would hit). If you intended for Honda to get this combo to work on additional characters, the final hit of renda hands would need an extended hitbox similar to the buff Honda received in AE to help against Sakura/Rose. Not that I’m advocating this; I think Honda is a fine character without it.
Fierce hands being +4 on block leads to a true block string, hands, fierce, hands xx super that will now deal like 138 damage or so (depends on rounding, too lazy to actually test). I think the change to fierce hands being +3 on block come AE was specifically to stop that, if so I doubt we’ll get any more advantage on the move. You can still do strong hands, jab, fierce hands into super for 142 damage with no gap in your pressure string.
.Regarding the buffs:
First, my whole point was the following: this version is a little too dominated by vortex characters, so it would be nice to have some changes. A lot of people thinks cammy, seth, viper, and others should be nerfed - but my oppinion is - don’t nerf anyone, just buff the rest.
So, basically I say - leave Seth, Viper, Cammy, Rufus and Akuma the way they are, don’t nerf them at all, but buff everyone else.
Yes, I want Honda to be strong - and I don’t think is wrong, as long as others also gets buffs.
is Honda good ? definetelly. The tier list I worked with shows this, but that’s not the only thing I take into consideration. I also look at other top players’ oppinions (Infiltration for example does not think Honda is in top 10), and more important, at tournament results. Honda never won a major, and more important his presence in top 8 at majors is very weak - especially for a character that is quite popular (I made a detailed statistic regarding this in the tier list thread). So, I don’t think his buffs are undeserved.
You have to take into consideration the fact that other characters also will receive buffs - including those that have bad matches against Honda. In the official rebalance request thread I made a list with buffs for every character - for example, Ryu, Sagat, and Dhalsim will have their FB start up lowered by 1 frame, among other things - so Honda needs to get something too.
Shikofumi: right now is completelly useless. I never ever seen anyone using this move successfully - with 30 frames start up, capcom could simply remove it.
What you say about Ken is true - but you forget a very important thing - Ken also has another overhead, that is 15 frames start up. So, even if Honda gets the buff I requested for Shikofumi, he would be a far cry from Ken. Shikofumi would still be 1 fr slower than Ken’s slowest overhead, and one of the slowest overheads in the game.
Would this buff make Honda broken ? I really doubt. With 22 frames start - it still really slow, so only usefull very sparingly. It wouldn’t affect Honda’s gameplan in a drastic way, won’t gonna make his good match ups way better (so those characters won’t be destroyed by him), and won’t turn Honda into a mixup character. But it would add a little spice in Honda’s game, and will make a move usefull - afterall, capcom gave it to him, it’s not like I request something he doesn’t have.
I think it would make honda more interesting to play, while staying true to his archetype. But if you think 22 frames would be too much - what do you say of 23 frames start up?
Ex Oicho: I didn’t request things to make Honda easier - with the exception of Ex Hands, but I already dropped that point. On the contrary, I think with this buffs he will reward more a better execution/ skill.
I don’t think Ex Oicho with invincibility would be too much - I already lowered the range significantly. Plus, those characters you mentioned all will gonna get buffs too, for example some Juri players requested that LP always hit crouchers (making her bnb 2fr link - what you were talking about earlier :razzy:).
But I’m not against to lower the range even harder for Ex oicho - 1.15 you think it would be enough ? (I don’t think it should be lower than U2)
M Hands/ extensions: well, if they would buff the hitbox and lower the hitstun, Honda’s U1 combo still wouldn’t be anywhere near Ryu or Rufus. It would still work on only a part of the cast, be space dependent, and more importantly, be a 1 frame link combo - the risk would be very big - if you drop the link, you can expect a huge punnish. No way near Ryu’s srk fadc U1, or Rufus, or Sagat, Viper ,etc.
It wouldn’t affect the match ups in a drastic way, but it would make Honda more fun to play - and capcom gave him extended hands (I didn’t know they are called renda :)) - so, they had something in mind. It’s a real shame that 99% of the time they are useless.
Btw, why do you say Honda has big damage on his combos ? in the Combo thread I’m trying to make a list with all his combos - and what I found is quite disapointing - with the exception of Ex Hands combos (that are very seldom used) and character specific ones (that works on few - ex. Hands-cr Mk -Hb), his best combo I found is cr Mk-Hands-Hk = 265.
I’m trying to make something like - Honda’s optimized combos list, so I would like to hear some sugestions from a better player, if I missed any combos, or such.
For real:
Fix buttslam hitbox.
Slight damage increase.
U2 the same as it was on Super.
Some invincibility on EX oicho.
Just for the heck of it:
Oicho knockdown more recovery time to have a decent setup after landing it.
Standing HK gives an untechable knockdown HAHA
St HK gives a wall bounce
And can be juggled with super or ultra 1 
Ok, I reevaluated Honda’s buffs, and took into considerations your sugestions. This is what I think:
Considering other characters also get nice buffs, I think this should be ok.
BTW it wouldn’t be reducing U2 startup, it is still a 1 frame grab. The difference is that whereas most 720s have the 1 frame of startup before the ultra freeze, honda has it after, meaning people can jump out. It can still punish things like uppercut fadc on block
Correct, it’s 1+0 instead 0+1. I’ll edit this.
this thread was just about as comical as the ken wish list or E.ryu thread. good god, i’m glad capcom ignores us at times.
and why exactly ?
why would you need more advantage on hit for ex hhs? i dont think it would benefit other than making the link into jab hands easier and if you cant do it you cant do it jab hhs into ex hhs isnt a 1 frame link so just do that and watch people mash reversal
Well, my point was that I haven’t seen Honda players ver going for Ex Hands combo, including Mike Ross and Cuongster, Cuongster even said these combos are too much risk so not worthy, so my idea was to give Honda something more reliable - outside of Ex Hands Honda doesn’t really have damaging combos, so I thought that would help him. Plus, ex hands combos are so fun…
What I thought is that these combos are not doable in a tournament setting and that they are only for combo videos - my idea was to make these combos doable in tourneys, not just on youtube.
But Arthur and Stevo told me Ex Hands combos are actually doable in tournaments, so I dropped the idea - now I only want more damage so the risk/reward to be a little better (and worth wasting a bar) and maybe some hitbox buff so all hits for Ex to connect with some characters.
All I’d really want is a bit of throw invincibility on EX Oicho startup.
Now for a game changing wish would be to turn Shikofumi into a Seismic move like Jack X have in SFxT.
Right now, the reason why honda will never be a real contender is that zoning characters can keep him out forever and the only way to close ground is by guessing. Honda needs something that can cause chip damage from distance so it forces the enemy into Honda range.
This move needs to be slow and punishable so it only works against turtlers and so, fireball or rushdown game is unaffected.
I guess this must be the focus of any balance change to Honda, to make his nightmare match ups into something that don’t requires sheer luck or a stupid opponent.
This change would alter too much Honda’s design, he would become a different character. By his archetype Honda has trouble with FB characters, they were his nemesis from sf2.
Honda is supposed to have trouble to get in against fb zoners, problem is, once he is in, he is not that scary, because capcom nerfed his dmg to death and altered his tools.
That’s why my oppinion on buffing Honda is - keep his weaknesses - trouble getting in ag fb characters and bad oki game, but revert some of his nerfs, and make his tools more usefull.