AE Rebalance Patch: Guy wishlist

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

I personally am not in favor of the AE balance patch coming, but it’s coming either way and there is nothing we can do about it.
If this patch is supposed to be player/fan-based, there may as well be a thread for it so that developers and word-spreaders can have some idea as to what to do with Guy if they wander into the Guy discussion threads.
I just copied and pasted my post in another thread. Ideally I would want everything that we can clearly agree on to be in the first post and probably have the iffy decisions up here too. I’ll be checking back on this to keep the thread updated. Let’s try to make this clean and organized.

Tier 3 (High Demand/Things that should have been fixed a while ago):
-Increase Walk Speed: A character like Guy should not be moving as slow as he is now, but extreme speed (Akume walkspeed) isn’t necessary. Yun/Yang walkspeed? Sakura?
-Fix the hitbox(grabbox) of Target Combo into grab or autocorrect into the hit if grab whiffs: The grabs whiffs with hit-confirms and smaller characters. What characters specifically?
-Fix the hitbox on EX Hurricane Kick: Guy should not have to run the risk of his opponent simply falling straight through his only reliable reversal that is non-fadc’able, costs meter, and easily punished. Make it hit both sides like a hurricane kick is supposed to?
-Increase Ultra 2 range;Input issues and leniency?
-Allow Guy to cross-up Rose and Dhalsim mid-screen…WHY IS THIS EVEN A PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE???
-Add more blockstun to far st.mp, allowing far st.mp xx lp hozanto to be a true blockstring and improving the viability of far st.mp xx run xx stop

Tier 2 (Considerable Demand/Discuss-able):
-Properties and Functions of Guy’s bushin flip elbow/grab: Bushin Flip Elbow to do chip damage; Bushin Flip Elbow to be an overhead (unreasonable); To allow combo-ability off of Bushin Flip Elbow, atleast on counter-hit or crouching; Two Separate commands for Elbow and Grab?
-Properties and Functions of d+mp in air (elbow): To be an overhead.
-U1 faster Startup; Consider making it combo-able mid-screen (vacuum property?), but give no animation (izuna drop); To parallel with Fei-long’s Ultra 1, one hit into animation; To scale less
-Run-Overhead to hit twice more frequently (Make the time between both hits shorter, fix the hitboxes so they will connect more often, or make the move a 1 hit armor breaker) To hit all crouchers, including female characters and Rufus (in most cases, Guy just leaps right over them.)
-Properties and Functions of EX Hozanto (Safer/Faster start-up); To give fireball invincibility…but he already has EX Run-Slide/Overhead
-Properties and Functions of non-EX Hozantos: Faster HP; Easier ability to go under fireballs with Light and Medium
-Properties and Functions of C.RH (Slide): To always knockdown; To make safer and closer ranges; To be an overall more use-able tool
-Properties and Functions of non-EX Hurrican Kicks: To make for a more viable reversal; Invincibility properties/Fix size of hurtbox so it does not extend out to spaces that Guy isn’t actually occupying; To make MK lower to the ground; HK to have upper-body invincibility to make for a better anti-air
-Improve hitbox on jump-ins, specifically j.lk and j.mk so opponents cannot use a low profile ability causing it to whiff. (Lower hitbox, or raise collision/hurtbox)

Tier 1 (Other things):
-To make first hit of c.mk cancellable (seems random, but this would open up a lot of doors for Guy)
-To give Ex Izuna Grab throw invincibility to other throws.
-More hitstun on Bushin Flip for some potential to combo, counter hit at least (not too reasonable since Guy already gets in for free from full-screen if this hits or is blocked)
-nj. hk to juggle on both hits instead of just one.
-To make any part of his FF chain cancellable
-Faster taunts

2

guess i’ll list what i want too

  1. WALKSPEED… let me say it again…WALK…SPEED. there’s absolutely no reason for his walk to be this ass. i will never understand how guy went from one of the best walkspeeds to being slightly faster than a grappler.

  2. i understand people want U1 to combo midscreen, but i think the developers wanted guy’s focus to be his corner game. hence why his moves push you to the corner. all of guy’s best tactics are apparent when he gets his opponent cornered. so what i want, is U1 damage to not scale so bad. it would give guy players more incentive to keep the opponent cornered. not to mention if his walkspeed were better he could keep them there a lot easier. it’d make his overall corner game extremely scary and cause the opponent to make more mistakes out of fear of not being caught in mixups and an ultra that does good damage. so i don’t mind if U1 doesn’t combo midscreen… i just want it to do better damage when being combo’d into.

  3. brunaleski mentioned this… taking a frame off the stop during run stop so pressure afterward isn’t such a gamble. it’s hard enough keeping pressure on an opponent with reversal windows as they are, and with how loose guy’s mixups are. there’s holes all over the place for him to be punished.

  4. fix the hitbox on EX hurricane. also mentioned by brunaleski, so that characters don’t fall through it(juri and adon come to mind). also fix it’s lower hitbox so low profile low’s don’t cause it to whiff.

  5. TC(strong fierce) was fixed in AE and seems to work fine on block… but a few certain characters it still seems to whiff on on hit if just 2 jabs are done prior to TC… or a cr. short > cr. jab > tc. i’ve had it whiff on cody numerous times as i recall. so a hitbox change(again) would be nice.

  6. the grab box on ff chain throw needs to be larger… it whiffs on smaller characters way too often… i’ve had the throw finisher whiff on sakura at least 90% of the time and cammy as well quite a few times.

  7. sweep to not be punishable on hit. this thing needs more hit stun. i’ve had it hit way too many times and got punished by nonsense into a knockdown. i don’t mind that it doesn’t knockdown at max range without a counterhit… just give it more hitstun so that i don’t get punished on hit even though i spaced it correctly.

random nonsense that i would just like to see but is unnecessary.

  1. run slide to combo after ff chain. leading into safejump setups, more pressure, and conserving meter for reversals in the process.

  2. giving air throw juggle properties to combo after ff chain in the corner. this is out of pure badassness factor and aesthetics. would look awesome as hell to finish a round/match.

i think that’s it… if i come up with more stuff i’ll update this post.

3

How about if bushin flip elbow doesn’t hit crouchers, then at least give it more hitstun so it combos on hit. That move is already very risky and easily punishable. Guy needs more to work with and more tools for him to be a rushdown character.

Faster walk speed would help a lot, I wouldn’t mind if the lower his HP if they improve his rushdown game and a bit of his defense.

EX sbk needs an improvement. That move whiffs, gets beaten, and trades too often and that’s not really fair for such a risky move that uses meter.

Also, give all regular hozzantos fireball invincibility. That move is so damn stupid. Sometimes I hit it a bit too early or a bit too late to counter a projectile and I know I can still make it to hit my opponent in time, however, I get hit by the projectile midway. Wtf is the purpose of that move if you can’t even go through projectiles and it’s - frames on block.

Ex hozzanto needs improvement as well. If not by some invincibility then at least increase the range it hits so you can get in better and actually punish whiffs from long distance. The move is unsafe on block anyways, so it could use a good buff compared to other moves in the game. Dudley’s ex move travels full screen I believe and yun’s ex lunge punch travels a long distance and it’s +1 on block so…

Ninja sickle seems like a useless move to have. Barely anyone uses it and it’s not even that great for frame traps. It’s not really high on the priority list but a buff would be nice just in case.

If these important fixes and buffs were to happen, it would help him compete a lot. Anything else would just make him more fun and diverse which would be great as well.

4

Make sure to post some of this stuff as a whole in the SRK large thread for wanted changes!

5

To put into context here THEY actually can make his elbow overhead in bushin flip. Seeing as everyone here plays Guy I’m sure they remember alpha days, and since I still play Alpha 2 and 3 on GGPO, i’ll tell you one thng that is different between the bushin flip elbows, Alpha has start up delay, Super does not, Basically what they would have to do is give Guy a bit of lag on when someone goes for elbow and it would work out,That way if they even were to go for elbow someone does have a small chance to react to it rather than a true 50/50.

6

Also for a small factor here, Tatsu DO indeed have invincibility on them however they are only low or, projectile or throw invincible.

His walk speed should increased, at least give him Yang or Yun’s walk speed.
The range on the TC Grab yeah should be increased or at least if Guy is out of range have him perform the Chain instead of the grab.
U1 has an 11 frame start up. Which is about 4 frames faster than his Overhead. Making it 8-9 would be reasonable at least for FADC combos which are already strict enough to get currently.
I’ve really got nothing to even say for Guy in regards to these changes that can be made, if anything make Cr.HP a better poke or anti air like it used to be, bring back the beta Cr HK, that went under fireballs, and give HP hozanto a faster start up, I’m not going to ask for EX hozanto be projectile invincible because we already have EX Run Slide, MK tatsu, Run overhead and EX Bushin flip. Fix the mishap that happens in EX Tatsu, … for shits and giggles and cause I play Alpha 3 far too much, give cl st lk some use for comboing.

7

I’ll post again in the “official” thread when we can get down to Guy’s priorities which are seeming obvious at this point

About the corner thing that Madmaestro mentioned:
Guy players already have an incentive for keeping their opponent in the corner and that is the universal appeal of trapping your opponent in a single space for them to work with in addition to the extra damage and reset opportunities Guy gets. Incentive isn’t an issue. As for the scaling with Ultra thing, I wouldn’t put it too high on the list since scaling is just another part of the game and it’s something that we just have to get over. If scaling is a problem, we always have the option of just doing a string into lp hozanto fadc. Or better yet, may be they can reduce the startup time of ultra 1 (like Blooddrunk said) so that it can connect without having to fadc on all characters.

What characters is st strong xx st. fierce whiffing on? Are you hit confirming with jab x2? Are you already at a pretty far distance? I feel that Capcom did a good job in fixing the chain. In this case, the problem isn’t in the chain but in the opponent’s hitbox.

I’m starting to agree with Blooddrunk about ex hozanto not needing fireball invincibility since he already has tools to get around fireballs.

Ninja sickle is fine as it is. You get good damage off of it if it hits (including a nearly unscaled ultra in corner), but you lose pressure if it’s blocked. It doesn’t require counter-hit for the launch. It’s not a bad frame trap imo and just because you don’t see people use it enough isn’t a good enough excuse for Capcom to buff it…it just shows that Guy has multiple options for good frame trap setups. I’m sure there are a lot of other characters that have useless moves and I really doubt ninja sickle is close to one of the worst.

I’m still not buying the whole bushin flip overhead thing and it doesn’t seem like that big of an issue. I tend to look at it as rock-paper-scissors; there are always 3 outcomes: beat something, get beaten by something, or neutral/tie. In this case the outcomes would be: land the hit/grab, get anti-aired, or get blocked (high or low). If bushin flip elbow were to hit low-blocks (the opponent would have to block high), it would complement bush flip grab’s ability to hit (grab) high-blocks (the opponent would have to block low) and Guy would always win in a what-would-be neutral outcome…he either lands the hit/grab, gets anti-aired, or lands the hit/grab. This completely eliminates the opponents option to even block in the first place and that isn’t balance, imo. 1 of our decisions shouldn’t beat out 2 of theirs, but if we flipped it so that the grab and elbow hit the same (which it is now) then the opponent would only have to go to one option (in terms of blocking) and that would be the low block. Imo, this is balanced, because when Guy does his bushin flip, he only has one option and so it kind of matches with the opponent’s option of low-blocking the grab or elbow (considering they can still anti-air. But it’s still a jump-in and I guess that’s still fair? sounds like another issue) The problem lies in the fact that Guy ONLY has 1 option once he takes off into the air and the opponent has 2 ways of dealing with it: beat it or tie it (they damn sure aren’t going to get hit by it). This whole thing contradicts the idea of mixups. A fix may be to give Guy 2 options (punch/kick for elbow/grab correspondingly) and let the bushin flip elbow be and overhead? That way it’s still a guess. I know it’s different than alpha, but this isn’t alpha, it’s Super. Now if it were an overhead in Alpha, I don’t know why they would even change it in the first place, but I’m just trying to setup even grounds. I’ll still list this in the first post.

How do you Guys (that was way too easy) feel about his hurricane kicks not hitting both sides? Is it something to fuss over? I always autocorrect my ex hurricane kick, but the fact that it doesn’t hit both sides kind of kills the whole logic of a hurricane kick.

Try to remember that Capcom has another 30 something characters to deal with so try to avoid asking for fluff or anything that isn’t really a "fix"
Updating first post.

Edit: To the guy that can’t punish fireballs with MP Hozanto:
It’s not that hard to go under fireballs with MP Hozanto. You need to hit training mode

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@Jnana - the strong, fierce TC… yes i’m hit confirming…and the fierce has whiffed for me at point blank on certain characters when followed by 2 cr. jabs or cr. short > cr. jab on a crouching opponent. the only character i can think of for sure that it’s happened to me numerous times on is cody. but i know it’s whiffed on a good handful of other characters on hit. as i said it works fine on block, the fierce will hit on everyone. but the tc on hit… i’ve had the fierce whiff on certain characters. the fix isn’t really necessary, it’d just be nice to have it work correctly on characters i think it shouldn’t be whiffing on. i’ll just have to go back to canceling from st. strong on characters i know the fierce will whiff on.

as for reducing startup on U1, i can go for that. i don’t mind having to fadc into it… it’d just be nice to have the window to land U1 be more lenient.

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Make running overhead safe on block.

Add a command grab (I wish)

Make EX hurricane hit FADC

Faster walk speed would be nice

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I’m always partial to the hitbox matching the animation, and it is a hurricane kick. IIRC, all hurricane kicks hit both sides so I don’t see why Guy’s shouldn’t.

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Walkspeed. Run overhead safe on block! and WALKSPEED

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Hurrican hitting both sides would be too op. No one would be able to cross up then. Atleast make it 3 frames so it’s easier to autocorrect

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I was gonna post make EX Tatsu hit both sides! LOL its true they jump over and you see the legs going through them doing no damage!

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Yup the physics doesn’t make sense

15

Yeah that and the fact that Guy has no great AntiAirs at least make EX Tatsu decent!

16

No one can cross up Makoto (+ she can juggle off of it), Gief, Chun, and Blanka(?) :S

I doubt Capcom would make the overhead safe on block considering it’s (one of) his best chip damage moves…and it’s an overhead

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Yea I guess your right about that. Deejay as well. In that case I’m all for it lol.

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Honestly, I’m content with Guy. He’s pretty much perfect. If they buff the low tiers and nerf the tops, he’ll definitely be even more competitive.

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I’m sure a lot of us are pretty content with Guy, but if Capcom says they are adding a patch with suggestions from fans, then we may as well try to point them in the right direction

20

Pretty much everything I was going to say was mentioned. Mostly walk speed, (why is a ninja so slow? I wanna see Guy power walk right in there. This could potentially fix many of Guys weaker match ups) ex tatsu not hitting sometimes due to opponents falling between the rotations and TCs still whiffing in various conditions and certain characters. Also anyone else have problems with Sagat? I try to cl.RH Bushin chain but the jab seems to whiff randomly at times. Or should I train myself to do TC to slide or something? Anyway If that would be fixed I’d apprieciate that too.

Oh there is one more thing I remembered. Please increase the range of the second punches hit box of Ultra 1. There has been many times when I landed the ultra but the opponent blocks and punishes because the second hit can easily whiff if you are not really close.
Overall though I’m pretty happy with Guy to AE. If they just left him alone and nerf free that’d be ok. Really his hozanto and bushin flips are fine. They could be better yes, any buffs they get would feel like perks to me atm.