No, don’t change her main poke, that would be horrible.
No far s. mp means no Swedish firecracker. :((
Just make the close s. mp bitchslaps not suck
It won’t change Swedish firecracker. You could still use far mp if you’re holding back or forward - cl mp would only come out at the same range as it does now when holding b/f. I’d just like to be able to also go to neutral at any range and have cl mp on demand for anti air.
As mentioned before and by skatan all I’d want is (and I know this might make her “OP” in some peoples view but really it just makes her practical and respected):
Make back+HK always do her close HK to make her have a viable AA at more ranges (and something to help with close Divekicks). It would give her that ‘Dhalsim’ AA without altering how you use her normals and not only that but would mean you could force it to happen in frametraps (as currently getting the wrong HK can be VERY annoying).
Make her even on block after hk legs so she can actually apply pressure like a huge amount of the rest of the cast and it also would offer her better options to mix up as currently good players know she’s at minus after it so are ready to punish unsafe button presses after… This isn’t a huge thing and if you look at a lot of the none divekick/vortex characters they have ways to apply at least 2 reps of safe blockstring pressure, this puts people in a position to be more fearful and press buttons/attempt to escape more.
Ok the big one, Increase her frame advantage on the loop by 1 frame, making the loop a 2 frame link!!! Yep this seems a bit OP but… BUT, you don’t get to land it all the time, its not an infinite on most of the cast and the ones it is on is situational, it damage scales so much that realistically you are never going to want to do more than 2 reps anyway imo. Lastly It would make people respect her more, she would have something actually scary. And yeah it sounds stupid and I can see why people may disagree but I think it wouldn’t break her although I get why you wouldn’t give her it…
Anyway that’s all I’d want as anything else starts to alter fundamentally what she is about (even giving her FADC on EX SBK I feel starts to alter the point of her - that being that she is all about running and dodging and not getting knocked down). So there are my pointless suggestions as realistically we will get like a 1 frame increase on D/F LK and a few hitbox tweaks 
I have a lot of potential ideas for how she should be but in general, I would be happy with nothing more than:
- EX SBK being able to deal with Akuma’s divekick and Vipers burn kick consistently
- Increased damage and stun for everything she has
- HK Hazanshu breaking focus
I think thats reasonable.
In addition, we need to come up with some ideas we can all agree with so we can ALL post similar ideas on the Capcom Unity page when it comes up, so our real needs get met by Capcom. Check the facebook page we have a poll and stuff
I originally said I was okay with either stand-alone Tenshokyaku or EX SBK buffs. Having had some time to sit on it I’m now convinced that we need stand-alone Tenshokyaku. Even if EX SBK were buffed to the ideal hitboxes it still has fundamental problems. All it takes is a safe jump OS to take away Chun’s best defensive option and force you to guess your way out of a frame trap/throw/other mixup. EX SBK can’t cover the neutral/mid-range divekick threat jumps, and it will probably still lose to certain attacks that come down on it. Plus it forces Chun to block divekicks crouching which puts her at a distadvantage.
I see Tenshokyaku working similar to Dudley’s Jet Upper. Invincibility on EX only. LK version would basically replace df+lk from Super. MK/HK versions would be good for tagging people who try to neutral jump in front of her, and early jump-ins. Depending on the hit box it could give her another meterless combo option which leads to potential ultra juggle.
Here’s how stand-alone Tenshokyaku would improve her game while still being balanced.
- Give her a more reliable/versatile AA. Much better than doing something wacky like changing the properties of s.mp or cs.hk.
- Give her a reversal option she can use while standing, important for use after blocking divekicks or after a safe jump OS
- Give her another meterless combo option
- Better cover the 1-3 o’clock space in front of her
- Still requires meter, so she can’t just use it carelessly
- Will be a 50/50, which means either she hits it or she whiffs and gets punished
- Can use 3 bars for EX FADC, giving her one get out of jail free card. For a meter-heavy character like Chun, 3 bars is very expensive
If you think about Chun’s weaknesses and why she loses, you’ll see that unless we get this pretty much no other change matters. Divekickers, Akuma and Viper will still own her soul. Other changes will just make some of her good matches even better and maybe push a few even matches to good but won’t do anything to fix the bad matches.
Even with Tenshokyaku I think the Akuma match is still horrible.
cr.mk links into ex legs on CH, and that works on everyone, crouching or standing, although it doesn’t quite work on Rog at max range. cl.mp requires you to walk up, and so loses to mashers. It takes a while to learn, but it’s not too hard. One less recovery on cr.mk so that it’s +1 on block (for actual pressure after a non-jab normal, something she doesn’t have), +4 on hit (for a reasonable link into cr.lk > ex legs) and +7 on CH (for hard links into sweep, or easy links into ex legs) would give her more solid pressure game.
cr.mp is a good tool as it is, cr.mk is a bleh tool that could be really good with a very small change.
While we’re asking for silly things, if they do this they should totally change U2’s frame data so it works like Yoga Catastrophe where you throw it out and then do a mixup/run away/use it for pressure, that would differentiate them, and they wouldn’t even have to raise it’s damage. And I want more range on ex legs you can link it from max range far.mp against the entire cast.
But I don’t really want to fill the thread with silly things like that, so moving on.
I haven’t been posting here that much recently, so I might have missed new tech, but to me Chun’s problem is not that I have crazy trouble when I get knocked down (my blocking’s pretty good, at least compared to my skill level in other areas), I don’t think she necessarily needs great wakeup options, it would obviously help, but I really don’t think a better EX bird kick would help, for example, against Akuma unless it’s got a huge hitbox, 3 frame startup, and multiple active invul frames, Akuma’s good because he doesn’t generally care about wakeup options. My problems with Chun Li are 1) there characters who can just jump at her from neutral (akuma is the worst, but I have a lot of trouble with Bison/Seth/Blanka too), not even from “certain ranges” or “it’s a mixup what anti-air to do” like Honda (which is still annoying, but playable), they just get to jump in, and if you didn’t neutral jump before hand, you’re either blocking or back-dashing (and getting pushed back to the corner/not being able to apply proper corner pressure is death) and it’s totally bullshit. 2) if I’ve lost the life lead, even if I get a knockdown, and feel comfortable doing my safe jump, I don’t feel like there’s that much Chun can to do to convert off that and make a comeback, (well, except maybe against Cammy, and a couple of others, but in general) which is horrible if you’re trying to get far in a SFIV tournament, where that’s a large part of the metagame.
I don’t necessarily care how they fix these issues, but to me they’re the issues that need to be fixed.
Yeah, pretty much, he owns her soul, it might just end up being the way the two character designs work in this game.
If you can’t store charge ultra, and walk forwards pressuring/mix-up/mind game with it like on ST, may as well just make it a qcf motion, so we can cancel it in easy. Everything else just seems like risky gimmicks, often more liable to land in her in the shit than take the other guy out.
Maybe try giving her a slightly higher dmg command throw as well (think A3 Karin)? Get these turtles out of their shell a bit.
Yeah, stand forward and roundhouse should be much better for this than they have been for the last 4 years. No respect for the heritage. They really gave her the short straw in this so far. Now is the time!
Any why can’t we have a proper, pressuring and poking c.mk again!? :-c Cap
I want
L
LLL
L
for legs to come out…
I’m tired of doing legs loop fine offline but online is so inconsistent. Sort of like a short cut to dp.
Give her Tenshokyaku. The normal versions would be like ibuki’s but ex will have inv.
Reduce the start up for b+mk to allow cr.lp to b+mk into target combo which would allow her to do 189 damage instead of her current bnb.
Increase damage on ultra 2 by 70 so it does 310-390.
Far.mp damage from 60 to 70
Cr.hk damage from 90-100
The one main thing id like chun-li to have back is her Kikoken being hcf again.
I think they should buff EX SBK to deal with Akuma’s dive kick and Vipers burn kick. Taking Akuma as an example, right now he only REALLY needs to switch between demon flip palm O/S Sweep and his demon flip dive kick to completely own Chun on wakeup. If EX SBK dealt with his DK better, it would actually change the flow of the matchup. Akuma would essentially try to rush down the entire time, using his palm os to catch the back dash, which means chun would be forced to block on wakeup, and akuma could start his pressure. Akuma already does rush her down, but im using this phrase in a different context, not so much rush down on wakeup, but pressure while shes standing.
furthermore, a lot of his other options arent as scary on wakeup, because right now its just a terrible, terrible guessing game because of that damn dive kick, you never know when he goes for it, because EX sbk stops a lot of his other crazier setups currently. Change ex SBK to be better, and its still bad, but its not really a guessing game as much (without the DK hell go for other shenanigans that are* way* easier to see coming). The match would be in his favor still once she gets knocked down, but now chun will have more ability to hang with him, because chun can actually deal with akuma while standing (because its not impossible to get out of his standing pressure and into a mid range game), and now his pressure game would be based around her standing. If she was safer when doing ex sbk in addition to making it better against his DK, the match would actually be in Chuns favor imo.
I only think that EX SBK’s buffs should be made with Viper and Akuma in mind. No other character concerns me with ex sbk on wakeup. Yun isnt a bad match if you keep him at mid range, Rufus is bad, but the difficulty of the matchup is over blown. So I’m happy to keep those matchups the same really.
I’m not convinced Chun needs it, but I wouldnt complain. I’m skeptical that Capcom is going to change her animations and such to accomplish this, im only expecting minor frame data changes and such.
I definitely would like to see the EX SBK hitboxes improved as well. For a move that costs DB charge and meter and isn’t FADC-able it should be a LOT more reliable. However if I were given a one or the other choice, definitely Tenshokyaku.
For Akuma and Viper I think Tensho would cover the AA/anti-rushdown just as well as EX SBK. EX SBK is stronger of course for things that go behind Chun, while Tensho would be better for things up-forward. The biggest benefit of Tensho would be ideally the DP motion, meaning Chun could block a safe jump and then throw it out. As is Chun has to block safe jumps and she loses EX SBK until she can build the charge again. This is a huge aspect and no amount of buffing hitboxes will change that. Also, even on a safe jump setup if you really just wanted to get out of it you could do EX Tensho FADC backdash, or maybe even forward dash which depending on the frame data might put her at a slight advantage. Very expensive, but sometimes avoiding that one mixup is very worth it. The best thing is that even if EX SBK wasn’t touched, it’s still decent and so Tensho would simply just add to her arsenal and she could still use EX SBK in the ways she does now.
For me the nicest part about a stand-alone Tensho is the threat that Chun could do it at anytime. It will make people respect her defensively more. You don’t have to throw it out all the time but the simple threat that you can will give Chun breathing room. Just like Yun and upkicks - he’s not going to do it all the time (unless it’s Kazunoko) but the simple fact that he can means you can’t go gonzo on his wakeup.
Since she already has Tensho as part of the target combo not a whole lot of animation would need to be changed. Just needs a command input and frame/damage data.
Alioune’s on a crusade.
I have a feeling when Chun’s turn comes around on the Unity boards, he’s going to suggest a nerf on Chun’s super startup. There’s no way he suggested lk scissors to be nerfed to -3 without taking something like Chun’s super into consideration. I really wouldn’t want to lose that. 
That would be the dumbest thing ever.
guys, we’re making a google doc for all the buffs that we can generally agree upon. Right now our google doc is being edited and is meant to be looked at by as many chun players as possible. We will be taking things out, adding things in, arguing for things etc.
I would like all of you to take a look at it
Why are we doing this? So that when its our time to submit changes, we can all copy/paste the doc into capcom unity so capcom definitely hears us. A bunch of random suggestions get lost in the mix, but if we all post the same thing, itll show how needed things are.
The link is a rough draft, and not every buff will be left in, and not every buff needed is added. Please take a look. I posted this on the facebook page too
lots of WTF in that list
anyways i really want ex hzu to have 1 less start up frame so we can have +HDK from CH cl.hk
and air hosenka
and 160 dmg on st.mk
Aside from option 9 which I don’t really agree with, everything is pretty much what we’ve all been saying here.
I feel like I’m repeating myself at this point, but stand-alone Tenshokyaku needs to be at the top of the list. That or the EX SBK fix, but these are really the only points that matter. Don’t fix this and she will continue to lose badly to solid rushdown, which is her number one weakness.
b+mk buffs - I actually kind of don’t care. Right now it’s not that useful except as a distance punish. A damage buff would be nice, but if I had to ask for something it would be to alter the startup frames enough so that it can be used as a frame trap. Doesn’t have to be off lp/lk…actually s.mp, b.mk would make for a very interesting trap, and I would actually take that over an immediate damage buff.
df+lk - Sure, but as I have been saying give us Tensho and that fixes this and the EX SBK problem.
EX SBK - don’t phrase it as “better against Akuma/Viper.” Those two aren’t the only two that can beat it, a lot of characters can flat out beat it with a properly spaced/timed jump-in. For a move that costs DB charge and meter that’s kind of silly. EX SBK should have bigger hitboxes and a smaller or no hurtbox, or more top-center invincibility. In other words if she does it, it touches the other character and they’re not blocking she should get the hit. Ideally we could also get a vacuum on the first hit so that she can get more damage out of it - as is sometimes she only gets one hit for minimal damage.
RH/EX Hasanshu FA Break - EX sure. RH…I’d take it but I actually think this would be a little too good.
Legs - More than meter there should be more hit consistency. Characters fall out for no good reason. Would like the hitboxes adjusted so that everyone gets hit by the full amount. Also, do not say “Chun is supposed to be a run away character”, no she’s not. At least not in this game. I’ve said this before, but Guile’s zoning game is leagues better than hers and he’s mid tier at best.
Ultra 1 full connect off 1st hit - I am actually against this idea. This would be broken and silly. Think about it.
Reading that list and I think there’s too much being asked for on there. My thoughts going through it:
-Ultra 2 needs a damage increase.
I think U2 doing 400 is too much. Anywhere from 350-370 is more reasonable. While I think she should be doing a bit more damage to match the bnb -> ultra capabilities of most other characters, I do recognize that she is still one of the fastest characters and more likely to open people up to land that. At 400 it would be too much reward for the risk involved and ease of execution imo.
-Back+Medium Kick registers as too many hits + Back+Medium kick should output 200 damage
Re: Back + MK. I personally just want it to be 6f startup so it will be a lot more useable, but addressing what you wrote about:
-
Scaling back damage occurs because it’s separated into 3 moves. I think it’s fair and allows you plenty of time to confirm from it. They could make the 2nd b + mk execute the rest of the target combo by itself so that it would total 2 moves but I don’t think it’s necessary.
-
Numerically it already adds up to 200 damage. But in game the 5th hit of tenshokyaku never hits anyone (which after scaling would make it total 180 due to it being 3 separate moves). So, if the 5th hit of Tenshokyaku was made to connect along with the target combo being only 2 moves instead of 3 as mentioned in point one, she’d get the 200 damage from it.
HOWEVER, I’d opt for b+ mk move just being 6f startup for the utility instead and I think in combination with a damage buff or “fixing” it in the way I described above would be TOO MUCH.
-Downforward + lk needs to be restored to what it was in Super SF4
d/f+lk I don’t think it should be completely reverted back to Super status (not the easy combo off of trade part). I do think it’s hitbox and startup should be improved though so it is more likely to AA with and less likely to trade.
-EX Spinning Bird Kick needs to be better against Akuma’s Dive kick and Viper’s Burn Kicks.
EX SBK should be improved as a better AA. Yup. But Viper and Akuma aren’t the only characters that this issue comes up for so I don’t think they should specifically be targeted for the shortcomings of this move. Shotos, Bison, Rufus, Gen and several other characters etc. can all jump right through it or cross it up even when it’s not a knockdown situation and you were simply ready to AA with charge. That shouldn’t be.
-Hard Kick Hazanshu or EX Hazanshu needs to focus break
I’ve never agreed with the idea of focus breaking HSUs as I think she has enough already to smartly deal with zoning (and focus) as is and SHOULD be punished for mistiming it or throwing it out wrecklessly imo (and she still has a chance to FADC it to safety and whiff punish if she has the meter). Another way in is not what she needs.
-
Light, Medium and Heavy legs should build more EX meter regardless of whether it hits
I don’t think this is necessary at all and I think she builds meter just fine, but has to burn it on EX too often. If she got the suggested b+mk buff then she’d be saving/gaining meter by doing a good meterless bnb instead of having to spend it on EX legs. That and a d/f+ lk buff would allow her to utilize that over EX SBK more often and save/gain meter in that department as well.
-st.hk needs to be safe against 3 frame uppercuts on block.
I agree with this. Adding blockstun to make it safe vs DPs on block is reasonable.
-Ultra 1 should get into the full animation if the first hit connects
I don’t think this should happen and this is where the player needs to make the decision to use U2 if they want a guaranteed juggle. It does very well on the ground and for punishes as long as she has charge ready and it does more damage than U2 (even after the suggested buff) which is a reasonable trade off for not getting a guaranteed juggle on everyone.
-cr.lk cr.lk EX Legs does not work on blanka properly
Well, personally I’d like a lot of the character specifics to be fixed (including st. HP whiffing on a large portion of the cast while they are crouching even mid-combo… which surprisingly doesn’t get brought up that often when we discuss this stuff), but I wouldn’t care if b+ mk got buffed to 6f startup because I’d opt to use that more often.
-U1 can go through opponents.
The examples you mentioned is her passing through the opponent when their hurtbox/pushbox is just out of the way or not there. Technically it can always be timed to punish them without going past them but the window (particularly Blanka’s) is small. This is something that would have to be changed for them, not Chun Li.
Julia’s Super startup got a nerf in SFxT while Ken’s got buffed in damage and range and I can’t think of a reason to show favoritism regarding this.
I know the thought of “nerfing Chun” in this next SF4 patch is probably not crossing your minds because it seems she struggles enough as is, but you NEVER really know with Capcom.
She’s S-Class in both versions of SFxT but has consistently been mid-level in the SF4 series (except Super. Even if she wouldn’t have turned out to be top in the long run I think she’d remain higher than mid-level). You just never know.
dark i really respect your post and your concept of chun
but really the trade from the df.lk into kikosho is fair
about hzu focus breaking is also fair, just look at adon, bipson and e.ryu
i really dont like the srk fadc idea from az tbh. I prefer a solid Ex sbk with vacuum effect and FADC properties.