^ he means lk tatsu not working, as it hits as aa but the opp fell out and command grabbed gouken’s recovery.
Hell it doesn’t even have to be damaging anti air. I want something 100% reliable though. Like let his dp + k allow him to escape from the corner similar to the way a teleport would work for Bison or Akuma.
Right now its sorta half ass where the ex version counters the jump in but leaves you too close to the opponent and roundhouse has perfect distance but the opponent can hit you out of it on the way up.
To me Gouken can fight some but he is the worst character in the game in his own bottom tier. Only Hakan is as slow and easy hit but atleast he has a command grab and an air throw.
I really like your list. Slight adjustments I’do in my wishlist:
- EX tatsu hits low. (All versions hitting would be a bonus).
- Air tatsus reduced recovery (to match a shoto’s recovery)
- Change kongoshin back to 2 zones on the ground + one that covers all air attacks
- Kongo and air parry immune to reversal break. EX Counter however, doesn’t armor break at all.
- EX air parry absorbs 2 air hits (counters air tatsus or Ken’s srk for example).
- Change cl.st.mk to a command normal to create a hitconfirm from light attacks.
- EX palm projectile invincible and a little faster.
- HP palm unsafe on bloxk, but with longer projectile invincibility to use on reaction, not on prediction.
- MP palm safer on block, like a dash punch. Maybe -3.
- LP palm increased range (maybe when canceled from normals to prevent being too strong).
- better hurtbox on far st.mk, so it doesn’t trade when AA’ing.
Thanks. I really like a lot of everyone else’s list too… I think there were a lot of good suggestions…
But I’m still standing firm on the kongo and air parry buff.
Not that we shouldn’t have it… I think it would be good in non-wake up situations where the reversal wouldn’t beat it, just not on peoples wake up.
I’m just hopeful we get good news, and hopefully we don’t see any nerfs.
These changes are really excessive. Your mentality is basically, “I don’t want to take any risks at all.”
I read through a few pages and it seems like Dek09 is the only one who actually understands this character.
Oh boy :3
Troll much? LOL.
He seems to have typoed and said few pages when he meant one post :3 Also he didn’t really want to go into why beyond one line and then insulting him and everyone else(except Dek)
He put about as much work into it as Hondas post on the unity change post :3 Though if anyone should think Gouken needs nerfs it would be Honda, so I forgive him <3
To be honest, I did skip most of the previous page since a couple of people were just arguing about nothing essentially.
The consensus in this forum is basically everyone wants to have 0 risks in some of their moves. EX tatsu hitting low and being throw invincible, counter being back to 2 zones (and a bit of discussion about not being armor broken?) seems to be the most common. Honestly, Gouken players have terrible blocking (myself included) and the changes some of you are suggesting reinforces that notion. Gouken has all the tools he needs to get out of any situation if he’s knocked down. The only downside is that he has to make a good read/guess on what to do but so does the opponent. Other characters may just need one invincible reversal + 2 bars to cancel to get out of most situations but that’s how the character was designed. I believe that if the Gouken player has solid blocking skills and strong matchup knowledge, the wakeup game is more in Gouken’s favour.
Just because one character has a particular tool, doesn’t mean Gouken should have it too. He doesn’t need to be able to easily combo after a command dive kick, have a setup after demon flip throw, a “get out of jail free” move or have his counter not being beaten by reversals just because some other character has it.
Learn to utilize what he currently has rather than complain about what he doesn’t.
Welp, I guess capcom asking for feedback and doing a balance update is futile now…
Gouken has been in every iteration of this game since vanilla. He has never been highly used nor what he should have been as a character. You think Capcom will get it right this time all of a sudden? I don’t have high hopes.
I just say it like this Gouken is a good character in a game of broken characters. Most everybody in this game has something not just powerful but a little cheap or somthing to spam Gouken doesn’t have any of that
…
i believe he has a good chance for substantial buffs, but i also believe he will maintain his status as solid counterpick for certain match ups like grappler, guile, honda, sagat, maybe ryu and some other. but i doubt he will turn in an universalist, i.e. worthy main in a competitive environment. his archetype seems to speak against that…
I responded to your troll, but the fact that you think counter doesn’t need to go back to two zones and that it is working fine shows you are not a Gouken player at all. No matter how much or how little you use counter as a Gouken player, you know the three zone system is absolutely ridiculous simply because of the middle and high parry.
It was split into three so that on certain jumps ins the the intent was to bait Gouken into using high counter and then land and hit him with something other than a low attack (say a cr.mp or cr.hp) and combo. With the two zone system, you can empty jump, bait that “high” counter (which was actually medium and high) and then land and punch and still get countered.
The problem is, now that it is a three zone system jump in attacks can actually bypass the high counter and hit lower than the activation box, so now counter is actually broken because even when you guess right, you can still be wrong.
People ask for the two zone system because it works. Other people just want High counter to counter all air attacks, but there is no way to flag an attack as an air attack in this system as of right now so really only the two zone system will work unless they want to implement some way to flag air attacks as such and have high counter only work against those.
But you knew all this, right?
Fuck out of here.
Hahahahahahahahahha
Funnily enough that’s most of the internet.
You’ll find that all over the place, not just here. Its best to explain the flaws you see in the suggestions than just insulting people, because the first one MIGHT reach them, the second will only make them more defensive and very unable to take any good advice you might have. Also this forum a consensus? The amount of bickering we have been having lately :3 My little pic that also showed up in the gouken forum topic has never felt so appropiate :3
The low hitting part is simply the easiest fix(and one of the reasons I’ve not been very enthusiastic about it) and you can’t blame em. A 3 bar escape would make Gouken feel a little better in some situations. It’s risk is ofcourse because that is Goukens main intended weakness. Personally I’d rather see the universal change of “No one gets to FADC a Blocked move, like Oni, ever” than see Gouken get a universal reversal. It would be a huge boost to Goukens intended goal of baiting mistakes for solid punishes and I’d be curious of the whole metagame shift because of it. Good chances are it’d be far to extreme, but I like to ponder some times. As for throw invincible, I’d hardly see the point. I just worry about HOnda with suggestions like these.
I’d see no harm in the 2 zones back and at a minimum it’d be nice if LP=Low Hits, MP=Mid&High, HP=ALl Airborne Moves(LP and MP lose to anything Airborne) just to make it easier to understand the zones they cover.(also death to shortcutbug, I wouldn’t be me if I didnt add that somewhere) Not being armour broken wouldn’t be that bad, but I’d rather have the Cammy and Fei Counter Ultra rule instead(Only true armour break wins, reversal armourbreak does not) as once again it focuses on Goukens punishing recklessness approach. Armour break is a system mechanic so to fully ignore it wouldn’t be right. SFxT gave Juri a crazy advantage though, especially as all her 3f counters were changed to 1f and its still not a broken mechanic. Ofcourse hers doesnt HIT it just moves, but I shudder to think her having those properties in this game :3
Actually I block too much. It’s why command throws are my kryptonite. A lot of players besides Gouken players could do learning to block more to be honest. But always blocking is NOT good, the last thing you want is being predictable even in this way. More blocking should be a thing though if one never blocks.
Nope. But some more common hard to escape situations other characters suffer are far more relaxed for him though.
This is almost every character in any fighting game ever. Gouken does have a harder time, quite intentionally to balance vs his incredible damage and other attributes.
It really isn’t. But I’ll say again, there are certain tough situations that are far more relaxed for him.
This part I can agree with as it’s one of my older pet peeves. HOWEVER, other characters do provide frames of reference and the meta game exists. One can look at why said character has those tools and what they lack and how it reflects on Goukens overall approach.
Not because E Ryu or AKuma can no, but because it fits his baiting and punish style. It was a choice originally made when they decided: “massive damage but no hit confirms” for Gouken back in vanilla. They’ve since come back on that approach and slowly but surely been increasing his hit confirms. It’s ability to punish rash antiairs or as a mixup tool warrant this to be a possible avenue for improvement that matches Goukens design.
Similar to above, but far less priority. It drops Gouken next to the opponent to allow him to bait and threaten, but goukens slow normals and breakable counter to reversals leaves him with limited options to follow his own goal. Options are there though.
Aye this is not part of his design and is VERY low on changes to need. I see this as likely making his good matchups even easier while only somewhat elleviating his bad matchups.
Not losing to reversals seems very appropiate for baiting recklessness. Once again, because it fits HIM, not because the ultras have it, but because WHY they have it. Most armour breakers are NOT good reversals and good reversals don’t armour break naturally. So the ultras allow for a guess(except the whole ultra flash makes that far less worthwhile. Now SG Valentine knows how to super counter :3
The internet. It WILL complain. Sometimes out of stupidness, sometimes people just need to vent. Also, the internet.
@Jaether
This argument is shallow: "Learn to utilize what he currently has rather than complain about what he doesn’t."
So, If there was a character that had a huge recovery on every move, I should just try and adapt?
Is it possible to win like this? Yeah, maybe. But the effort would be bigger.
And thinking this way, nobody would be entitled an opinion on adjustments, right?
I´m not saying that Gouken should have everything that other characters have but some of the stuff stands out. ie: air tatsu recovery. Try and do it with Sakura, Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Oni and even Dan. They have a few frames of recovery but if the opponent is far they can block in time. After Gouken touches the floor, he takes a nap waiting for a beating.
I forgot to add:
Lower restriction to do instant air tatsu.
And bottomline, this is just a wishlist.
@Soushan
Good write.
Taken out of context, but the answer to this is always YES.
For fun reference, said air tatsus are all 10f recovery and irc every ex version is 4f(for the kids at home this is every normal and most air moves standard, like akmuas DF palm). We have 20f recovery across the board.
This is not an aspect that would help Gouken shoot up the tiers, this would however make me extremely happy just for funs sake. Even if all we get is the same as what the shotos have.
THIS.
(andthenIgetgreedyandwantthelegprojectileinvincibletoojustbecause)
Awww 
Thanks 
How would y’all feel about decreasing the start up frames of all of gouken’s normals on the ground and in the air, And increasing the active frames of all of his normals by one?
Well that would be good but also a detriment in some ways.
Reprecussions of improved startup and active by 1 frame(and hit/blockstun/recovery staying the same) would be all+on block/hit goes down by 1
Benefits footsies, does not help in the upclose game where Gouken has issues due to very poor on block numbers as is on anything not MP.
His j.MP would become even stronger.
Overal it seems not the best way to fix his worst matchups, but could improve him in some situations. He already has pretty fast strong footsies(like sweep), so while added bonus, not a great long term change.
Oh and 2f close MK is lol.
Hi all.
I think that Gouken is hard to change because he can be a S tier quickly if every aspect of his weaknesses (close range, wake up…) are strenghtened cause his strengths are just top 5 ( damage dealing, zoning).
Ex tatsu hitting low is a good change IMO. It isnt a free get-out-of-here cause 3 ex bar is a lot. Its a nice tradeoff.
I dont think we should give him a reversal immunity on his parry. But i would rather delete his weird move which decreses his speed when he goes into this stance.
I would like to see his lp palm move just a tiny step farther and hp palm gaining projectile invincibility since first frame and being faster but more unsafe on block ( or less pushback).
I think that his c.lp should be +1 on block.
Optional: decrease the recovery of his DF grab on a successful one. I think that Gouken should have time to prepare setup when this move is done.
Of course his tatsu shouldnt let the opponent fall so they should fix it. Revert the kongo change could be great, cause they are some weird moves with hitboxes ( chun hazanshu has to be blocked low wtf?).
It would be a great improvement for him without giving him too much power.