Advanced Balrog (Boxer) Mind Games + Tricks

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
341

I see your point. I was thinking more along the lines of what would be best for the option that the opponent backdashes and you execute the ultra. I think a lot of people may have the problem of having their opponent being hit by the cr.LP and still doing the Ultra because the cr.LP animation is indeed so quick. I think it would be a good alternative for those that can’t execute the Ultra input quicker than a crouching jab can finish its animation.

And I promise I’m not arguing just for the sake of arguing as I really love your idea, I’m just trying to stimulate some thinking on everyone’s end. Well without charge I suppose you could cr.LP -> close HK -> cr.MP xx Dash Straight very tricky though. But with cr.mk you also have the option of cr.MK -> f.LP -> f.LP xx MP Dash Straight.

Wait a sec…I don’t have time to try this one out rainscape, but lets suppose you don’t have a full super meter and thus don’t have the risk of executing the super by mistake with this option select. If you threw out the meaty cr.LP, then F, B F, B like you suggested but instead pressed all three kick buttons, if the meaty cr.LP connected you would have the possibility of linking into a st.HK or st.MK from the ultra input if you use 3k instead of 3p. Without charge cr.LP -> cr.MK is kind of a dead end, but cr.LP -> HK -> f.LP -> f.LP xx MP Dash Straight is good for damage, hell even cr.LP -> HK -> f.LP -> f.HK (which i know you threw that out there already) but I like the idea of the ultra input doubling as a possible link from the original cr.LP, it would require less button mashing and trying to see what happened and reacting. Just a thought I will try it out when I get time, I’m sure you will probably play with the idea as well.

342

OK so I made a video showing the cr.MK / Ultra option select in use along with a tiny little “how to” intro segment. I’m aware that I didn’t technically link (therefore combo) the pokes following my cr.MK but its just to put this into a version where we can see it, and others can see it and get feedback.

All the credit is due to Rainscape on this one and not me.

Check the Vid: [media=youtube]UUGFvljkw5U"[/media]

343

Something I’ve been looking at doing is OH Smash FA > PHAT COMBO. It more or less makes the OH safe unless they’re holding jump. It level of difficulty of landing the FA after overhead seems quite character dependent. Some characters it seems impossible (Fei-Long, Ryu, ChunLi), others it’s 50-50 (Cammy) and then there is relatively easy (Gouken, Akuma, M. Bison). I haven’t tested this on everyone, but the most important part is landing the FA then dashing in. It’s quite easily hitconfirmable too. You can follow up with any kind of punish combo. Best would be FA hit > s.rh, cr.mp, EX RU, cr.lp, cr. lk > HB for me (I can’t link cr.lp to cr.mp in upper loops yet). Although some characters like Dan and Sim that I know of have weird crumples which means the s.rh will frequently whiff in chich case cr.mk, cr.mp, EX RU, cr.lp, cr.lk >HB is better.

344

This is a great one. I’ve been playing with this combo for quite a while and the best purpose I’ve found for it is to use in the middle of a combo once you’ve completely scaled your damage back to 10% since the Dash Swing Blow doesn’t technically combo from a poke it resets your damage and stun scaling letting you serve up a dizzy in a hurry against most the cast. If you try using in this manner I suggest waiting til you have 3 ex bars and using the EX Dash Swing Blow because most players are going to be mashing something praying you miss a link if you make it this far in the combo and you won’t be poked out of the start up of the Overhead. Ropedrink and some other guys were talking about combos with the most stun and we dismissed miy idea of the Dash Swing Blow xx EX FA because it wasn’t technically a combo. if it were it would look something like this:

j.HP -> HK -> cr.MP xx EX Dash Upper -> cr.LP -> cr.MP xx (EX) Dash Swing Blow xx EX FA lvl 2…forward dash cancel…HK -> cr.MP xx HP Dash Straight

I forget the numbers on it, but go into training and turn on the damage counter and what not. Even replacing the cr.MP’s with cr.LK’s still yields you huge damage and stun.

345

You use this? Man alive. I don’t see why you would trade the guaranteed damage of a Super for a ~30 frame reset gamble. That’s some ballsy shit. You’re a braver man than I, bud. If that whole thing works out it should do around 765 damage and 1320 stun, which is impressive as hell, but boy howdy is it an unnecessary risk. If your opponent is on point and just blocks the dsb then you’re only hitting around 397 damage and 700 stun, which are still respectable numbers, but it costs you a wasted stock of meter and puts you at -5 on the blocked dsb, which your opponent would surely take advantage of if they know what they’re doing. This also means that that 700 stun would start shedding long before you get the chance to put the pressure back on.

That’s the gamble anytime you do a dsb reset, obviously, but if you just go with the guaranteed damage of a Super in this situation (replacing that first ex.upper with a f.straight Super cancel) you’re doing around 557 damage and 620 stun guaranteed. And since it ends in a non-techable knockdown you can start putting the pressure back on during/after wakeup, which means less time/opportunity for the stun to shed.

I don’t know, bud. DSB resets when you have up to three stocks, like you said, are fair gambles. I totally agree about that. But to trade a whole Super for one? No thank you. Unless of course you win a game with it. In that case its a great idea.

To each his own though.

346

xaaz, you make some good points, but I’m a firm believer that even stupid options can be used smartly. On it’s own, a raw ultra may not make sense to do at all because we all know about the long startup and ease of which it is punishable on whiff and block, but in the context of a match, if you know what you’re opponent is going to do, then it might actually be the most damaging option you can choose.

Same goes for this I think. You can condition them to stop mashing through your links by using the walk back cr.mp trick and punish whatever move they do accordingly. Once you’ve gotten them into the more fearful mindset of blocking, this is when I think you can exploit a FA cancelled OH smash, as the FA attack makes the OH smash a lot more safe.

347

MrChowda

Man alive. That kind of mindset with an ultra is insanely reckless, bud. Anticipatory/Psychic shit is all about investment vs return. You invest a small to moderate amount with the potential for a large return. You do not invest everything on an unfavorable gamble, excluding specific desperate situations that is (sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures). I don’t know who you fight that makes anticipatory ultras viable for you, but the people I play know to change their tactics when I’ve got a crazy or violent buffalo loaded.

Anticipatory ultras are generally not going to work on someone that knows to change tactics. It’s like Ryus Super trap, to illustrate the point. If he’s trying to zone you with fireballs, is outside of srk range, and doesn’t have Super, it’s fine if you jump over them. Once he gets Super though, you do not jump, because if you do then you’re going to eat it. You change your tactics based on what your opponent is capable of doing.

On reaction is when doing a raw ultra is a good thing. To use Ryu as another example, if you see him stupidly throw a fireball from halfscreen when you have ultra, then yeah, ultra through it on reaction. But if you decide to just do your ultra out of the blue because that same Ryu has been throwing fireballs from halfscreen all day before you got ultra and you assume he’s going to throw another one now that you have ultra, then you’re going to get fucked if he knows what he’s doing.

One can never truly know what another will do. Anytime you do an unconfirmed move (ie, outside of combos or not on reaction) you are taking a risk. Why would you take that risk with an ultra (a move wherein by just having it changes the game in your favor) based on what you think your opponent is going to do? The proper answer is, you wouldn’t.

Reaction is the key on raw buffalos, bud. Not anticipation.

As for the whole dsb ex cancel business, I’m not saying you should never do that. There is a time and a place for almost everything. To say though that ex canceling a blocked ex dsb makes it more safe, while technically true, is debatable. You’re still at -1 (18-1+4-20) even if you ex cancel a blocked ex dsb, and 1 frame is all it takes to ruin your day with some characters. My point is that only when you have Super does such a gamble become unwise. Yes, the return on your investment is astronomical if it pays off, but if it doesn’t then you’ve only scored a simple truncated jump-in combo at the cost of all your meter (providing you ex cancel the blocked dsb to get to get to -1 instead of the straight -5).

I am not the be-all-end-all authority of Balrog gospel. But I do know a hell of a lot about him. And in my opinion, trading the guaranteed damage and favorable positioning of a Super for a very dangerous (though highly rewarding if it pays off) gamble, is stupid as shit.

That’s just me though. Do what you will.

348

‘Anticipatory/Psychic shit is all about investment vs return. You invest a small to moderate amount with the potential for a large return’.

I totally agree with your point here. But what I’m trying to say here, out of context, doing a particular move may be as you say (and I would agree) insanely reckless and stupid. BUT, you have time to either gather information about the opponent or condition them to perform a particular move. Of course it’s true that no-one can truly know what the opponent will do next, but you’re basically trying to minimise the ‘risk’ by seeing if they continually do the same thing which is an opening for your ‘stupid’ move.

The best example I can give is me playing a local M.Bison player. after a blocked TAP, he would always try and throw out a poke. This did not change even though I had a red flaring ultra. I did TAP 4 times (on block) and everytime he threw out a poke. 5th time, I did TAP > Ultra, smacked him for full damage and won the round. Sure he wised up after that, and I knew to never do it again. The risk had gone way up because he now knew about my incredibly stupid shenanigan-y move.

In regards to the EX DSB FA cancel > combo, for me, I would only use it on matchups where having super isn’t really that important. But for say against Honda and the Shoto characters for example, having super would start limiting many of their options. Sure, the combo reset I mentioned is pretty difficult, but I think the complete mindfook effect if you landed it would be definitely be worth it especially if you’re playing a long set.

Although, maybe we should just agree to disagree :stuck_out_tongue:

349

Agreed.

350

Xaaz,
LOL no I don’t use that combo competitively. It wasn’t really my intention to imply that I did or that its even a good idea. The combo cited was not for practicality’s sake but rather just an example, be it an extreme one, of how a successful DSB can reset damage, stun and really capitalize on your hard work and timing for hitting links like that.

You are 100% dead on with your thoughts on risk/reward and meter management. It would be absolutely silly to waste a full Super Meter in the hopes of hitting crazy one frame links when a Super Combo would come close to serving the same purpose. Hell, I think in my post even, I recommend using cr.LP -> cr. LK rather than cr.LP -> cr.MP if you have the smallest bit of doubt hitting a 1 frame link. Even, at the sake of just burning three EX bars, I really fought with myself on the question of is it worth it to EX Dash Swing Blow xx EX FA lvl2. Ultimately, for me, that answer is more often than not a resounding “No”.

However, it does bring a new question up that you vaguely touched on and I would like to know how you and other Rog players would handle this one: In what scenario is expending 3 stocks of Super Meter, or the entire bar on a Super Combo, a smart move? The latter part is more of a clear cut decision, if you are guaranteed to land the Super Combo, or if it will end the Round/Match I will capitalize on that opportunity. But is it really worth say 2 more bars to continue a combo past 4, 5, or even 6 hits considering the damage scaling in the game and on Balrog’s dependance on his EX moves in certain match ups? I will usually try avoiding situations where I am left with no meter and at a disadvantage in a match.

Give me some input. I think we can stir up some conversation on meter management, and how important is it to have EX available when using Rog’s mind games.

351

StevoKanevo

I’m going to preface this response with a little breakdown on Rogs meter meta game in general.

Balrog is not a meter dependent character. He doesn’t need meter to be effective. That’s one of the reasons he’s so good. This also means that you don’t have to use his meter in any one particular way. Meter is really versatile when it comes to Rog. It lets Balrog players have numerous different styles of play. Some people prefer to use it exclusively for ex dashes to get in on an opponent that likes to zone them, some like to use it exclusively in combos with ex.uppers and such for extended damage and stun, some like to store it up as an escape/surprise tool such as ex canceling a tap into a tick throw or back dash in clutch situations, others like to just store it up to sit on a Super to lock down an opponents projectile game (I know Rogs that will refuse to use a Super against fireball heavy chars, even if given the chance in a combo, because just having the Super limits the fireball zoning game so much). And some others even like to do a combination, mixing things up particularly during different matchups. You don’t have to use meter in any one particular way with Balrog to be effective. Giving Rog meter is like giving The Terminator a bazooka. It doesn’t really need one to kill you.

Now as far as your particular topic about expending meter in combos, well, it all comes down to what type of character you’re fighting, how confident you are, and how much you’re willing to risk. Combos are not always about instant gratification. In certain matchups and in certain situations you have to think about the long term investment. In general, Rogs moves do 2x the amount of stun as they do damage. This means that even when heavily scaled you’re scoring much more stun than damage. Now put that knowledge together with specific matchups and long combos and you’ve got yourself quite a decision to make. Is the damage decrease worth the stun increase of a long combo? The answer is entirely matchup and player dependant. If you are fighting a low stun value character, like Cammy for example, and you’re confident you can keep the pressure on after the reset so you can work towards that dizzy, then it may be wise to consider investing quite a bit of meter in a single combo if the opportunity arises. Conversely, if you’re up against a high stun value char, like Gief for example, you may want to consider investing only a small amount of meter per combo to maximize your damage.

Damage is important. You can’t win without doing it. But sometimes you have to look at the big picture. Sometimes doing less damage (long combo) in a given situation will let you do more damage (dizzy) later on, and vice versa.

352

Nicely put, I agree.

353

Damn xaaz,
I was hoping to get peoples brains churning and have them throw out their thoughts on if they are the type of player that likes to have the possibility of throwing a super at any time impeding the opponents projectile, wake up pressure tactics, etc or if they use it so save their ass when an unsafe move is blocked. But you covered pretty much all bases there and I couldn’t agree with you more. One thing to throw out there for some players that may be unaware of this but when it comes to stun, and the amount of stun the opponent has accrued, they generally start shedding off the stun after about 1-2 seconds of not blocking a move, not being hit, not lying on the ground, not flying through the air, nor in the animation of being hit by a characters super or ultra. So supposing you do setle for a short, high damage combo that knocks the opponent to the ground, even if you greet them with a meaty jump in or simply pokes to have them block their level of stun will not begin to decrease. But as you pointed out, you will then have to be able to get the pressure back on the opponent which may be difficult considering they’ve had time to possibly gather their thoughts if they were knocked down.

But I must say, you provided a fantastic answer to the question at hand.

as an aside, i don’t know about the terminator with a rocket launcher analogy. I mean he failed at killing John Connor, so maybe he did need some heavier weapons.

354

Indeed, meter management is something that xaaz seems to have a good grasp of.

As he said it depends on the matchup for me. If I’m playing Honda, it means I take away one of his main weapons: sumo HB. Same goes for Blanka with rolls and even shoto characters with fireballs if you’re on point with dash ultra/super. Although, super isn’t absolutely necessary against shotos since you’ll most likely be FADC a few fireballs to get the ultra bar. Once you get the flashing ultra bar, hopefully they’re scared enough of your ability to dash ultra that they’ll stop which will mean you’ll have an easier time getting in on them and be able to use ex meter to land as much damage as possible when an opportunity presents itself.

Stuff like the OH Smash > lvl2 FA > combo I mentioned I think is useful against characters who don’t have a great reversal special whom you can easily pressure on knockdown. I’m thinking of Vega, M.Bison, Abel, Chun with no meter, Rose, Sakura off the top of my head. My thinking is I can pressure these characters easily once I score the knockdown (usually via sweep) so I’m going to be able to build meter very quickly anyway and in any case, having super doesn’t really limit any major threat they might have against Balrog (not that I know of anyway). Plus, I think doing a crazy combo and causing them to get stunned is worth it simply for the fear factor it puts in the other player making them think ‘Holy Sheet! Dis guy links are derr crispee! SHEET SHEET SHEET!’ That all the while you smack them with another brutal combo which if it doesn’t finish the round, would probably finish their confidence.

I certainly respect solid play and that should definitely be the foundation of any good player, but I like to think that I have this weapon in my arsenal which I can pull out if called upon, no matter how infrequently I may use it. And whilst there are some difficult links in there, I remember listening to an interview with a top player, possibly Justin Wong and Arturo Sanchez, but it was something along the lines of ‘Why is Japan better than USA? Because in the US, we see something crazy and think, wow, that’s cool. But there’s no way you’d use it competitively. But the Japanese are not afraid, they will do whatever it takes to win.’. Not to mention the fact that if I ever did pull it off, I’d feel incredibly proud :slight_smile:

355

OH really isn’t that good as an oki move, even against some of the characters you listed (Abel can ex TT you for example). It’s a telegraphed move, and you can get punished really badly on reaction if they see you doing it on their wake-up.

You might get away with sneaking it in once in a while, but it’s not something you’d want to rely on.

356

I was playing around with Overhead Smash --> FA2 combos in training mode before but kinda just gave up because it didn’t work on crouching characters (I think I just tested with Sagat)

Which of the cast does Overhead --> FA2 work on when they are crouching?

357

From the top of my head, Viper, Sakura, Zangief. Probably more of them but I haven’t tested it yet.

Timing is strict though. Probably a 1 or 2 frame window. Release the FA too early and you’ll whiff because the smash pushes their hitbox out of FA range momentarily, Release too late and it gets blocked.

It might be easier to do in the corner though.

358

This is just based off of training mode against a standing Ryu, but it OH xx FA lvl 2 works on him no sweat. The timing for it almost feels natural to me. I mean as the overhead pushes them away you release MP and MK just as they are sliding out of range. I will mess with training mode on crouching and standing opponents and let you know what i get.

359

OH > FA2 is easy on standing opponents. Problem is with crouching opponents, (Chances of landing OH on a standing hitbox outside of using it on a wake-up are pretty small)

To clarify my earlier post, hitting crouching opponents with the OH will knock their upper body hitbox backwards, and if you release the FA2 too early you’ll whiff. If you release too late it’ll get blocked. It also doesn’t seem to work on everybody.

360

So I experimented with every character standing and crouching but only bothered trying my luck in the corner with a few select characters. Here’s the results.

Dash Swing Blow (OH) xx EX FA lvl2 works on all standing opponents EXCEPT ROSE (oh no =p ) but whiffs every character crouching.

So that kind of takes away a lot of the practicality as far as I’m concerned. The majority of the time you hit this move it will be against an opponents low guard and with that being the case you will waste 2 stocks of EX if you don’t read the situation properly. So you would have to catch the character standing, but not blocking or if you land it as a counter attack to one of their standing attacks (A flashing yellow Boxer flying across the screen usually tells most people to throw, block, or move no throw out a poke and get punished).

Only thing I can think of is if you use a Dash Swing Blow and the opponent is standing, you could EX Focus Cancel the move regardless and if it connects just release the FA and if its blocked, back dash. It’s a gamble and would require very good reaction time, so its up to the individual to make the call of if you’d like to save those 2 bars for some other type of mind games, shennanigans, or just meter management purposes.

Anyone that is using this successfully, competitively, please let me know as I’m very interested to hear your thoughts.