Actually the JKs are not -3 or -2 on block when they are well spaced/timed! … Most of the time the JKs don’t hit very deep/early (with the first active frame) … if you hit with the later frames your JKs (MK & HK) are becoming safe (-1) and when well spaced even 0 on block … especially when your opponent is crouching … that is the reason why you should always block Adons JKs standing … but don’t tell anybody. The crux now is that a lot of chars has only a 4 frame cr.lk and therefore the cr.tech is not fast enough to catch the 3 frame jab from Adon … and on top … if you are -1 on block and you throw the throw will likely beat a 3 frame jab because when they hit on the same frame the throw will win! Against chars with a fast cr.tech (Bison, Chun, …) this changes a bit and is one of the reasons why this MU are harder.
light JK is very hard to hit late/meaty and hard JK is very easy … medium JK is in between:
light JK got 6 active frames and is -3 on block … if you would hit late with the 3rd active frame you will be 0 on block (very unlikely)
medium JK got 7 active frames and is -3 on block … if you would hit late with the 4rd active frame you will be +1 on block (normally hitting with the 2nd or 3rd active frame after a far cr.mp cancel)
hard JK got 8 active frames and is -4 on block … if you would hit late with the 5th active frame you will be +1 on block --> HK JK does always hit late if your opponent does not neutral jump … that is the reason it is -4 on block … it does 80% of the time hit with the 3-5 active frame … that’s why it was nerfed all the time … that move is normally completely safe and armor breaks and chips 33 damage … o.O
On hit just add one frame to your frame advantage to light & medium JKs and two frames for hard JK.
It is even possible to combo off from a hard JK (on counterhit) if you hit someone crouching … should be +3-4 on hit or something like this … it should be possible with MK JK also … but it is nearly impossible to do. I don’t say that this will happen oftern and you can react to it … but it is possible … only situation I know this sometimes happens is after a close mp (on block) hard JK cancel …
Buttons pressing after JK on block:
The reason why you should at least sometimes press buttons after a JK is simple the reason that it is very hard to tell how late/meaty the JK was … and therefore hard to tell if you are close to 0 on block.
So if you throw after a meaty JK you will pretty much beat all buttons and you OS tech. That is the reason why they let Gamerbee press cr.lp (3 frames) … because they are often crouch teching because of the throw option … b.throw is almost always in range after a JK … !!!
Basically you got these options after a JK on block:
OS cr.tech & cr.hp (will beat back dash or will tech) or just do regular cr.tech
B. Throw (will OS tech or throw the 1st active frame of a mashed 3 frame jab if your JK was meaty and 0 on block)
light RJ (it has lower body invincibility and will beat a lot of cr.tech and nearly all back dashes but will lose to throws and fast medium buttons)
hard RJ (hail merry … but you get some respect or a full punish … XD)
level 1 FA back dash (very nice trick actually especially against chars with short back dashes! … will lose to throws and reversal DPs)
Just back dash … but I prefer the FA Lvl. 1 back dash
Block and/or delayed tech (well … you know why)
Sometimes I think that light RJ was designed to be a viable option after JK on block … especially with FADC OS … but it is still risky …
Medium jaguar kick is strange , reserval special 3 frames like dp or Hakan’s spd cannot punish it but Sagat with his crouch light punch can , the two in one bad space can be unsafe against him.
Jaguar kick medium is at -2 at worst no matter the range , Ken’s super punishes it not his 3 frames dp , i think the only execption is Sagat , most of the other big guys in the game has a 2 frames spd to punish this.
The best thing is too well space your jaguar kick to take no risk with a janken , but the rj lk is good against characters with a good backdash and not a 3 frames cr lk and the rj hk can be good against the opposite but it’s really risky to do it.
Pretty sure it is because of Sagats hitboxes … I think he can cr.jab/punish it when you hit Sagat standing with a medium JK … because he is hit with the first active frame. Is he able to punish it even when he is crouching ?
Light RJ:
Would be very interesting against which chars the light RJ works as a counter against cr.tech & back dash … it is even more interesting now due to the better corner juggle. It is a pity that it is not throw invincible and only airborne after 6 frames … o.O … OS cr.tech & cr.hp OR simple light RJ seems to be very solid options after a well timed JK. But you should always check first if your opp. likes to throw you after a JK on block.
If you got 2 Bars the option is even better … just light RJ OS FADC … still risky but if you guess right you get Ultra or a nice follow up … AND you cover the back dash and FA back dash … not bad actually …
Is light RJ FADC forward dash also -5 on block ? If not … you can even OS the FADC forward dash … !?
Yes, exactly. Which is the point of my question. They don’t do it for a reason. WHY? That isn’t an answer.
Awesome reply, thank you. I knew about the JKs being even up to neutral but still didn’t know why certain options beat stuff, I’ve experienced all you’ve mentioned and didn’t know why. A neutral on block JK is very hard to achieve and I usually get -2/-1 . Now here is the part I don’t understand
If you’re -1 and someone throws a 3f jab the moment you go for kara bthrow, why doesn’t their cr lp beat your throw since they don’t collide in the same frame window? You’re throwing 1f slower ( so it’s 4f ) and they’re hitting with a 3f button.
And how about shotos? A 3f cr lp/cr lk would on paper beat everything you have at -1 after a JK, trade or lose to your throw at neutral and lose to your cr lp/lk/kara throw at meaty +1.
The two in one is when you cancel a normal by a special , like the jaguar kick after the cr mp or hadoken after a crouch mk.
Every rj except the ex are at -5 after an fadc , recently i hold the focus until it’s level 2 after the dp and almost no one punish , maybe it’s just because i play too much online and we can still do a backdash after and against some characters we can juggle with one hit of the rj lk , we still have options to make the dp fadc almost safe.
I didn’t think so. I don’t work in raw cr.mp xx jk into my game at all. I usually have that sequence at the end of a blocked block string, but never raw. Are there uses for just throwing it out buffered a la cr.mk xx hadouken?
Sure it makes sense … cr.mp is very fast for a normal with that range AND it got a very very good hitbox … if you play footsie with at optimal range with cr.mp … there is no reason not do buffer MK JK … if cr.mp whiffs nothing comes out … if it goes on block or hit you will sail in with a MK JK that will be -1 or 0 (most of the time) AND you are in … XD … not adviced against chars with 1 frame punishes …
Ah … that is a pity … I will check how good the lower body invincibility is from LK RJ … maybe it will stuff some meaty medium normal (like Ryus cr.mp) … I am very sure it is a very good option against Sagat … the King is doing meaty cr.lk all day long …
As far as I know only Kens cr.lk is a 3 framer … all other shotos have a 4 frame cr.lk … so it is again rock/paper/scissors … if they want to throw out a 3 framer to counter your jab … than they are not teching … and so on
Pretty simple … you just input LK RJ FADC … when it hits you get your FADC … if the opp. does a back dash only the 2nd hit of LK RJ will connect and you simple cant FADC … that is the idea of an OS … it is not magically inputting two moves at the same time and the engine looks “hey … cool … what will hit … ok … now I take option 2” … it is just that your first option whiffs or not and than your OS comes out “or not” … but you can just hammer in the FADC … andif your first hit whiffs you will not FADC anything … so … there is no downside to it … only that you will be -5 and in there face … but better than -18 … XD Currently I would do the same as Seratna said … I would not FADC … I would just input LK RJ and press FA … and look what happens --> if he back dash … I will get him … if I hit --> dash MK RJ … If on block --> wait for level 2 or do back dash … BUT … still risky … !!!
Right right… I have serious trouble with canceling RJs with FA. It’s just a timing issue on my part. Is the input strict? can the FA be buffered before the RJ comes out?
They do not !!! What I am saying is that in theory the jab will counter hit your throw … but you need frame perfect manual timing for this because your are not able to reversal a jab … if you are not 100% familiar with the JK timings than “human error” / “manual timing” is a big factor and on top you cant plink a jab (without select) … just think about this … you time a safe jump that is easy to do … like > throw > dash > jump > normal … even this set ups can sometimes fail because you just miss timed it by 1 frame … now you have the JK situation … which often looks and feels different … depending on spacing/distance + the normal JK cancel … and for sure MK or HK JK … to perfectly hit this 1 frame window to be faster is not possible all the time … and than you also have hit & hurtboxes … just take it as it is … if you space your JKs good it is just sometimes a good idea to press a button or throw … XD … and if you have conditioned your opp that you will throw after a JK … he will start teching … and if he do so … you should pick a counter option … it is more about to learn fast enough what your opp is doing when a JK goes on block …
Ähhhh … don’t know what you mean with “buffered before” … but the concept is that you input RJ > immediately FA > Dash
Canceling the LK RJ is a bit harder than the HK RJ … but overall not really a hard FADC combo/special … try this … just do the DP motion > hold forward > press FA > press forward again … and your FADC will happen … if you do it this way you don’t need to tab double forward … because holding forward counts as the first dash input … you can even hold FA for a split of a second and than do the second forward input.
By buffer I mean… if I OS a RJ during a j-towards HK, can I, during the HK stun, input 323-K MP+MK? Or do I actually have to hit the first hit of the RJ before I can execute the FA?
Ah … ok … got you … well … just try it dude … P-Mode is your best friend.
You just input a regular RJ OS and than FA … but this is kind of tricky … light RJ is very fast and you more or less has to commit to the FADC … I do not often use RJ OS in HK jump ins … you sacrifice your block … I only use it in certain MU (e.g. Honda) … I like it more when you do ambig. MK jump ins OS RJ … so that the reversal DP would whiff and you catch a back dash with the RJ … sometimes you get a juggle and can follow up with another light RJ (does work on Fei) …
Note:
We really should build up a char specific list … to write down all char specific set ups and OS … would be so useful …
Especially against chars that only have 4 frame buttons … ^^
Man, I feel so dumb. You know how usually if you do crLP x3 on a crouched opponent a LRJ will whiff, but you can hit with EX? Well… if you finish with HRJ, it will hit too XD.
Also found out recently that you can IAJK stHK for 3 hits. I knew you could get 2 hits, but didn’t know you could get both hits on the stHK.
Hmmmm … This is all Char & spacing specific … !!! Against Ryu your HK RJ will also whiff if you do cr.lp x3 > HK RJ
IAJK > st.roundhouse (2 hit) … you need to hit very deep and I am pretty sure it is also char specific …
LK RJ whiff --> It depends on the char … e.g. against Cody your light RJ whiffs but your MK RJ does almost always connect from any distance … against Chun you can use HK RJ in nearly all combos … and also EX RJ works against Chun if you combo into cr.mp > EX RJ …
There is unfortunately no “Rule of Thumb” that define --> if X does not work than Y does work …
Against which Char did you test this !?
You know … this is one of the reasons I want to create a char specific combo & tech thread … to write down what works and what not on all chars.
Something like this:
Char specific stuff for character XY:
Combos & Hit confirms:
Cr.hp CH/Trade combo:
Close MP CH follow up combo:
Light RJ 2nd hit follow up EX RJ:
Best hit confirm with 2x lights:
Best hit confirm after jump in MK:
Best hit confirm after neutral jump HK:
Best hit confirm into Ultra 2:
HK JK combo after close mp or CH close HP:
CH HP combos:
Punish:
Max punish after Level 1/2/3 FA:
Max punish after reset Stun
Max punish with EX:
Max stun punish:
Set ups & Safe jumps:
Anti DP set up: Hard JK or Hard JT or EX IAJK:
JK cross up set ups:
JK cross up corner set ups:
IAJK wake up cross up:
Close MK/MP meaty set ups:
Close MK meaty trades against Reversals:
EX JT cross up set ups:
Fuzzy guard stuff:
Fuzzy guard neutral jump HP (corner) after f.throw:
Corner cross up IAJK with fuzzy guard:
And some other Char specific tech.
Adon is full of this stuff … and you can optimize damage/stun and okizeme so much with Adon if you know all the char specific stuff.
