Abel Beginner Thread: "It takes more than brute strength..."

[Dustlooper]

Just wanna say “Thank You!” to Dustlooper for this great writeup. Helped me a lot.

Thanks, bro. Still working on it, obviously, but I try to get an update or two every week.
If you have any questions, throw 'em up so I can include 'em. If you’re wondering it, someone else probably is, too.

[sakeido]

How come?

When he does a run back command throw on you (propeller throw?) with not-stupid spacing, you jump facing the direction he came from and he lands very slightly behind you. nj.lk can “cross up” and hit people behind Abel, so you can use it to at least force Fuerte to block or maybe punish his recovery with nj.lk, standing close fierce. there may be a way around this for Fuerte… dunno.

[Dustlooper]

Neutral jumps finished. Lazy explanations. Whatever. I got the hit boxes up.

Jumping normals next. Should be easier to write about.

[NissanZaxima]

I have just started using Abel not too long ago and I need to know what are some crucial OS for him to learn? I am allready practicing crouch tech but I keep hearing people talk about OS sweep and what not. So what are some basic universal OS that Abel can use (if there are any universal ones). And are there any crucial OS that I need to know for certain matchups?

I want to slowly work them into my game so I just want to cover the main ones for now. Could someone help me with the inputs to if they suggest it? I understand what a OS is suppose to do but the inputs throw me off a little bit. I feel like I am slowly learning though.

[oialt]

Question: what’s the best way to apply ground pressure on an opponent while staying relatively safe and capable to attack/defend? Abel lacks pokes, and rolls and step kicks can be used to get inside. It’s just once I’m inside what do I do? Basically I’m struggling against characters like Cammy and Juri, who can bully me up close until I get that crucial knockdown; as well as characters like Rose and Bison who can quite happily keep me at arms length with pokes. How do you apply pressure, and force characters back?

[Dustlooper]

EX CoD has one hit of hyper-armor. They’re poking? EX CoD eats a poke and punishes.

EX TT is immune to hits. If it whiffs, though, you’re up to be punished.

If you’ve used something like a f+mk to get close, it’s now up to your creativity. Blocked? TT, neutral jump, or roll. Hit? s.hp xx fierce CoD or cr.lp, cr.lp [notalink] f+mk. Tick throw. They’re crouching? OH s.hk.

Be creative.

[HFX]

best way to apply ground pressure

s.lk

[A_V_I_A_T_O_R]

best way to apply ground pressure

s.lk

So True

Dash up st.lk and don’t forget about st.mk, basically play footsies to get in, Do not try to force your way in with jump ins all the time, its risky if not spaced properly.

[Nikkowar]

This is going to be my new home, my Abel sucks.

[pieton]

I am very new to Abel but interested.

Couple of simple questions :

-Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

-I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.
Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD
I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

-When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

-Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.
Because I was reading all those great mix up involving rolling than rolling back cross up. If perceptive opponent always
push grab on a second roll where are the mix up.

thx for your answers

[Bunsav]

-Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

Yes you should be able to confirm that the F MK lands and go for the St hp and on block you should just crouch tech(to bait reversal), throw (prob best option), TT (if you notice your throws teching alot after the blocked F MK).

-I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.
Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD
I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

Ok on the holding your stick thing really is down to you finding the way you like to do it best. I reset the stick after the dash, plink the st hp and go from there. The cancel is very slow from the st hp, you have plenty of time.

-When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

I kind of answered this already however i will elaborate. Most decent players will be trying to throw you out of a blocked step kick so TT is a great option. Problem is a decent player will know you want to TT and a single neutral jump/backdash to make you whiff that TT leaves you open for a full BnB. In the same situation if you used normal throw they will struggle to punish you (its not impossible some chars can do it but its far safer).

Personally i always go for normal throw on the first blocked step kick to test the water, if you get a tech i would suggest trying a TT next time. On the other hand if they n jump or back dash not only will you be pretty safe but you then know they are scared of TT so you can try option selecting a cr short with sweep to catch the backdash. If they are neutral jumping or jumping back/forwards after your blocked step kick try going for st hp anyway to tag them jumping out.

It comes down to you reading them but your go to safest option on a blocked step kick is normal throw.

-Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.
Because I was reading all those great mix up involving rolling than rolling back cross up. If perceptive opponent always
push grab on a second roll where are the mix up.

You should not be rolling in randomly to attempt to close space.
Just learn to be patient dash in/walk forwards to get you into your step kick/st lk range.

Now thats said lets talk about mix ups. Take this as an example, if you land a TT then dash forwards and lk roll soon as you leave that roll start a cr hp done right they will be UNABLE to throw you as you are hitting them early enough to beat the throw.

The setup with the double roll you talked about is for baiting reversals it loses to throws and thats just a risk you have to take. If you see them being a bit throw happy dont go for those sorts of setups go for meaty ones that beat throws (like the one i mentioned above).

Ill just walk you through a example so you can understand where each mix up finds its place in a game.

So you got your first knockdown with a TT, you dash in lk roll and the cr hp lands preventing him from throwing. Now if his throw just got beasted by that setup the next time you try a mix up he will most likely want to try his uppercut. So lets say for example you land another TT and dash in lk roll then lk roll again, he whiffs the uppercut which would of beaten TT and you get a free punish.

Its all about getting into the opponents head and deciding whats best. If you want some further examples of roll setups then just drop me a pm and ill break some down for you.

[Dustlooper]

Bunsav did a good job answering these, but I’ll throw in my input as well. Replies will be in bold.

I am very new to Abel but interested.

Couple of simple questions :

-Should I directly hit confirm out of f+mk

Yes. There’s two questions I ask myself when I land an f+mk: (1) Are they blocking, and (2) are they crouching?
If they’ve blocked the f+mk, you have a couple of options.
The most obvious is a fierce TT. This works on both standing and blocking characters.
Abel’s normal throw is quicker, has less recovery, and does less damage.
If they’re crouch-blocking, cl.hk is an overhead. I’ve heard that OH hk, s.lk, f+mk is a link, but I don’t know. Apparently it’s two one-framers, but I honestly don’t know.
If they’re standing, cr.lk is a valid option; a crouch-tech is an even better one. You can go for a cr.lk, s.hp, fierce CoD; the cr.lk, s.hp is a one framer. You can opt for cr.lk, s.mp, strong CoD, but I don’t know if that’s still a 1-framer.
Besides those, there are other options–though they’re not as safe. Things like cr.mk xx mk roll can work, but it’s not safe (see: gimmicky). Just go into practice mode and look at what you can do.

-I dont how to hold my stick best when going for f+hk s.hp ,
I am so use to p-linking c.hp with Ryu that its kind of unnatural to me to do a standing fierce punch.

How did you hold your stick with Ryu? Hold it like that. There’s no reason to reinvent the wheel. Just get used to it. When you try to do the s.hp, just make sure you’re plinking while your stick is in the neutral position.

Do you let go the stick hit s.hp quicky xx into COD

**Honestly, I just practice doing it with the least amount of inputs. Go into training mode and get used to the f+mk, s.hp link. If canceling s.hp xx fierce CoD is your issue, practice that (make sure you’re doing a cl.hp). **

I find easy to link s.hp if I hold my stick forward , problem is when I want to xx into COD I am doing a sky fall.

It sounds like you’re doing :qcf::r::p: instead of :qcf::p:. go into training mode and turn inputs on. Look.

-When my f+hk is blocked is TT the most natural option

I assume you mean f+mk. But, it is the most natural option. That, however, doesn’t make it the best option. If it’s the most natural, that means your opponent probably anticipates that. Keep that in mind, and consider how you’d prevent getting TT’d. Examples include backdashing and neutral jumping. Neutral jumping can be beat by AA cl.fp, AA cr.hp, and other options. Backdashing can be beat by a couple a things, and there’s a couple of OSes just for that.

-Something about all the mix up involving a marseille roll. What if you play an opponent who simply push grab anything
he see you roll. Should most of the roll thing be when I get a knockdown.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7S1JTWz7Q_CYzkwNWUxYzktNmY0YS00MzhhLTk5N2MtOGIzMzgzOWYzMjA1&hl=en&authkey=CPnAyIwG&pli=1
This is just a page showing oki options, along with frame advantage. After a TT, for example, dash and lk roll to land in front, or dash and mk roll to land behind.
But, try to restrict your rolls to oki or avoiding projectiles. Abel has the fastest dash in the game. Along with f+mk, your approach game shouldn’t be a problem.

[Bunsav]

TY looper you touched on some stuff i missed.

[pieton]

Thx for your advice, its refreshing to see a complete answer.

I briefly look at the Okizeme varation on wake up, very interesting. I had a couple of questions about it.

After TT dash lk roll…

option 1: You go for a meaty TT, It can get beat by neutral jump or reversal ( how fast the reversal has to be to beat it)

option 2 When you go for a c.lp, is the goal to delayed it a few frames after the roll to get it meaty. With 8 frames advantage, 5 frames startup on the c.lp and 2 active frame it seem it would whiff is done instantly after roll.

If you c.lp hit, is the combos of choice s.hp xx strong Cod. Do you try to hit confirm on the c.lp , I see its +6 on hit so it look reasonable or a prefered option would be to go c.lp , s.hp than decide on hit to COD and on block to Roll.

What Option select are useful vs backdashers in relation to a meaty c.lp

option 3 meaty C.hp. So is the idea to cancel into roll on block and do a combo if you see it hit.

After a block F+mk , when you want to option select vs backdasher, Do you go c.lk + c.lp xx c.lp + c.hk . and finish with a blockstring on block. Also when you realise youre c.lk xx c.lp have hit confirmed do you have a better combos option then finishing with normals.

After a block F+mk , as i understand an opponent mashing 3 frames jab should beat you out of TT but will get beat by a regular
throw. What do you do against opponent who mash OS c.lp + c.lk and have 3 frames c.lk.

After a block F+mk , if you throw the opponent has option of backdash but neutral jump get beat.

I appreciate all your inputs, It really is helping me

[Dustlooper]

You’re noticing that everything beats something else. A lot of Abel is based off the yomi game. If you notice they enjoy backdashing, you know (now) how to beat the backdash. You can’t do the same shit over and over; that’s why it’s called a mix-up.

Answers in bold, again.

Thx for your advice, its refreshing to see a complete answer.

I briefly look at the Okizeme varation on wake up, very interesting. I had a couple of questions about it.

After TT dash lk roll…

option 1: You go for a meaty TT, It can get beat by neutral jump or reversal ( how fast the reversal has to be to beat it)

**You have an 8 frame advantage. All TTs have a 5 frame start-up (active on frames 6 and 7). So, assuming it takes a frame or 2 to input the HCB, the reversal needs to be throw-immune on its very early frames. So, something like an SRK beats TT.

Remember that, if you whiff, HP TT has the least amount of recovery frames. But, HP has the shortest range (0.9). Medium has more range and takes longer to pull back. So on and so forth. EX TT has the most recovery, and has a little bit more range than HP TT. Strengths, as usual, are HP, MP, and LP. EX TT does damage equal to MP TT. EX TT is immune to hits on the first 6 frames. All other TTs are immune to throws on the first 6 frames.**

option 2 When you go for a c.lp, is the goal to delayed it a few frames after the roll to get it meaty. With 8 frames advantage, 5 frames startup on the c.lp and 2 active frame it seem it would whiff is done instantly after roll.

Right.

If you c.lp hit, is the combos of choice s.hp xx strong Cod. Do you try to hit confirm on the c.lp , I see its +6 on hit so it look reasonable or a prefered option would be to go c.lp , s.hp than decide on hit to COD and on block to Roll.

cr.lp, cl.hp, fierce CoD. You can do strong, but why sacrifice damage?
If you’re landing a s.hp, why are you canceling into a roll? If you feel like you can hit-confirm just off of the cr.lp (possible, I’m sure; I just can’t do it), cr.lp, cl.hk hits as an overhead on crouching. Also, cr.lp, TT works just like a tick-throw on blocking characters. Of course, cr.lp, s.hp, fierce CoD is valid; you can FADC the first hit of CoD into a cr.hp (2-frame link), and follow with either fierce FS (any character), U1 (any character), or lk roll, fierce FS (character specific; I have a chart in the guide).

What Option select are useful vs backdashers in relation to a meaty c.lp

**Quote in spoilers. Don’t ask me to explain this; I’m clueless.

OS

Spoiler

Breathless... SUPER Abel Match Theory Thread

[media=youtube]E_XC-FpuaTE[/media]
Use this one vs characters who have “good” backdashes like Chun, Rose, Etc.

[media=youtube]M6ESAxpe3u8[/media]
You can use this one vs characters w/ shorter backdashes

option 3 meaty C.hp. So is the idea to cancel into roll on block and do a combo if you see it hit.

cr.hp, fierce FS on hit will work, as will cr.hp xx fierce CoD (cancel the first hit). You can do cr.hp, super (cancel either hit), but I never thought super was worth it. YMMV.
If you’re a bold fucker, you can do cr.hp xx fierce CoD FADC fierce TT on block. Not quite a tick-throw, but you get the idea. Not safe, though.

After a block F+mk , when you want to option select vs backdasher, Do you go c.lk + c.lp xx c.lp + c.hk . and finish with a blockstring on block. Also when you realise youre c.lk xx c.lp have hit confirmed do you have a better combos option then finishing with normals.

c.lp, c.hk is not a link. That doesn’t work. But, a fun thing to do is cr.hk, mk or hk wheel kick. The cr.hk has to be blocked low; it can be special canceled into wheel kick, which is an overhead.

After a block F+mk , as i understand an opponent mashing 3 frames jab should beat you out of TT but will get beat by a regular
throw. What do you do against opponent who mash OS c.lp + c.lk and have 3 frames c.lk.

Unless it’s an EX TT. EX TT beats that. EX CoD is also has one hit of hyper-armor. Neutral jumping and backdashing are options. EX roll is immune to hits starting on frame 2; all other rolls are immune on frame 6-onwards. Really, as Abel, sometimes it’s just best to block that shit and wait for them to fuck up.

After a block F+mk , if you throw the opponent has option of backdash but neutral jump get beat.

If you’re doing just a regular throw, no big. Whiff time is minimal. But, if you’re noticing they like backdashing, I gave you some OSes.

I appreciate all your inputs, It really is helping me

Get some inputs from hfz, HAV, Juicebox (if he still likes to post), or other residential Abels. I’m not very good.

[pieton]

Thx for your help , still need some clarifications

Remember that, if you whiff, HP TT has the least amount of recovery frames. But, HP has the shortest range (0.9). Medium has more range and takes longer to pull back. So on and so forth. EX TT has the most recovery, and has a little bit more range than HP TT. Strengths, as usual, are HP, MP, and LP. EX TT does damage equal to MP TT. EX TT is immune to hits on the first 6 frames. All other TTs are immune to throws on the first 6 frames.

Good to know, when you go for a meaty one on wake up is HP TT the best one ?
Wiki Frame datas from Shoryuken mention Ex TT has 1-6 frames throw invincibility,
as I understand this is simply a mistake and its hit invincibility

cr.hp, fierce FS on hit will work, as will cr.hp xx fierce CoD (cancel the first hit). You can do cr.hp, super (cancel either hit), but I never thought super was worth it. YMMV.
If you’re a bold fucker, you can do cr.hp xx fierce CoD FADC fierce TT on block. Not quite a tick-throw, but you get the idea. Not safe, though.

So when The meaty c.hp is blocked you have to cancel into a roll right ? Otherwise your -6 on block

With the meaty c.lp , s.hp If your hit confirming within the 2 moves you have to cancel s.hp into a roll again on block ?

c.lp, c.hk is not a link. That doesn’t work. But, a fun thing to do is cr.hk, mk or hk wheel kick. The cr.hk has to be blocked low; it can be special canceled into wheel kick, which is an overhead.

c.lp + c.lk xx c.lp + c.hk

Maybe your not familiar with the option select but the annotation above signify the c.lp will chain together
since chain take priority over the strongest attack ( in this case c.hk)

If opponent back dash c.hk come since the c.lp are not getting cancel into each other.

My question was is this the best OS vs backdasher and what combos should you do if c.lp xx c.lp happen to hit

Again thx for your asnwers , I am geting a crash course on Abel

[Dustlooper]

Tried to help.

Thx for your help , still need some clarifications

Good to know, when you go for a meaty one on wake up is HP TT the best one ?
Wiki Frame datas from Shoryuken mention Ex TT has 1-6 frames throw invincibility,
as I understand this is simply a mistake and its hit invincibility

EX TT only has hit immunity. Option-Select.com - Strategy - Abel also has frame data for Abel, but I think it’s SF4. Same gist, though.

So when The meaty c.hp is blocked you have to cancel into a roll right ? Otherwise your -6 on block

With the meaty c.lp , s.hp If your hit confirming within the 2 moves you have to cancel s.hp into a roll again on block ?

**I’ll give you a situation:

After a TT, I’ve gotten an untechable knockdown. I now am going to go for the safest options: dash, lk roll or dash, mk roll in order to make my my opponent guess what side I’m on.

At this point, regardless of what side I’m on, I’m probably going to do a cr.lp, s.hp. If the s.hp hits (same concept here with c.hp), I’m going to go into fierce CoD. If it doesn’t, I’ll cancel into lk roll or mk roll for another mix-up (this isn’t safe, but it’s better than being -10 on block).

After I’m done with that roll, I’ll do cr.lp again. If he blocks, fierce TT for another knockdown and another mix-up.

I have a video where I do this once or twice to a local player. I’ll see if I can get it off of him so you can see rather than hear.**

c.lp + c.lk xx c.lp + c.hk

Maybe your not familiar with the option select but the annotation above signify the c.lp will chain together
since chain take priority over the strongest attack ( in this case c.hk)

If opponent back dash c.hk come since the c.lp are not getting cancel into each other.

My question was is this the best OS vs backdasher and what combos should you do if c.lp xx c.lp happen to hit

**Input: c.lp, F+MK ~ ~ s.HK, forward

vs late cr.tech: will get CH that combos into F+MK
vs backdash: free F+MK combo
vs jump-aways free damage, but no followup setup.

So, you put in the f+mk and the s.hk together, if I’m reading that right.**

Again thx for your asnwers , I am geting a crash course on Abel

[Cokkles]

I have two questions.

1. c.hp xx jab roll, super. Is this worth the damage?

2. Abels links… I’m used to Dudley jump ins which consist of j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, shk etc etc. Obviously you can’t do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.mp cause it ends up being a fs.mp… So… should I being doing j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or should I just do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.hp xx fierce CoD etc.

I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. Cause it seems my old habits from Dudley are hurting my Abel play a bit. Because Dudley doesn’t have differences in close and far standing moves.

[Anti-Hero]

I have two questions.

1. c.hp xx jab roll, super. Is this worth the damage?

2. Abels links… I’m used to Dudley jump ins which consist of j.hk, c.lp, c.lp, shk etc etc. Obviously you can’t do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.mp cause it ends up being a fs.mp… So… should I being doing j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or j.mk, c.lp, s.mp? or should I just do j.mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.hp xx fierce CoD etc.

I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. Cause it seems my old habits from Dudley are hurting my Abel play a bit. Because Dudley doesn’t have differences in close and far standing moves.

c.HP xxx super (roll doesnt really matter, cept style) can be worth it. Its a lot of damage. I like it, but those 2 possible FADC’s can also be worth even more damage, so i like to leave it up to how the match is going. And obviously do it if its for the final round/win.

Jumpin mk, s.fp is a good combo, faster than c.jab and c.mp and more damage + it goes into F.CoD. But that whiffs on standing so i usually go to either c.mp or c.jab link s.mp if they are crouching.

[cuttyb87]

Abel is a unique character outside of his cross over mk he doesnt have anything to jump in so try not to jump while using him.
I guess that the only advice I have a question for all Abel players. After the F-Mk S.HP combo is nice but I notice that if you f-mk then go into cr.lk then tornado throw it add more mix ups I want to know whats some of yalls favorite way to make your Abel play unique