A3 Remix thoughts

Thoughts on an A3 remix I was having at work this week.

(to clarify, I don’t think it will happen, but just thinking about tweaks to A3).

Much like [ST]HD Remix, I was thinking more in terms of character tweaks instead of big system changes, but one sorta turned into the other.

In no particular order:

Using Alpha Counters to ghetto patch A3:

-Akuma and Sakura take Alpha 2 damage if they get hit by an AC while V-ISM is active.

-Ditto Zangief, but for the jumping body splash. I’m not even sure if this is ultimately a bad thing for Zangief, as it encourages him to jump in empty, and he can dodge a lot of attacks by doing that. As it is people will be waiting for the splash so they can AC anyway, so Gief gets free SPD when he lands.

-Chun takes A2 damage from ACs on close standing Fierce. Again, I’m not sure if this actually mkaes her much worse; you lose a chunk of your guard bar and a level of super meter when you do ACs anyway.

-Dhalsim takes A2 damage from ACs during far standing Roundhouse (see above), and when he has less than 25% meter while V-ISM is active.

Infinites, etc:
Crouch cancels remain. Despite the fact that they’re a complete accident, I think they’re interesting. As far as infinites go, my idea was to introduce temporary stun damge. After the VC ends, basically your attacks will do stun damage as necessary to dizzy the opponent before you can re-activate, or build meter on the ground.

Let’s say it takes Sodom 10 jumping Fierces to recharge his meter for his infinite- the character he’s fighting will artificially become dizzy after 7, or after his meter gets to 35%, or however it would work out (it’s the MvC2 undizzy principle). So there would be no combination of whiffed special moves or combos after that, which would allow him to continue the infinite without the opponent being able to escape. This would be different for different characters, obviously, and many of them wouldn’t need it at all, just the half dozen or so with recharge infinites.

For those with regular cc infinites (Vega, Cody, Ryu, etc), it’s the same idea. They get some amount of meter back, but particularly in Vega and Cody’s cases, it’s more based on stun damage, since 75 jumping Shorts only gets you 8% meter. This stun damage would reset after the cc combo, and whatever the legit stun that the character had before the cc would return. Guard meter doesn’t normally replenish while you’re being hit, though I considered if it should in these cases. I’m leaning against it.

So, basically, if you want to do 100% damage, you’ll need to land a VC twice. This characters who maybe aren’t that goodi n V, but have an infinite going for them (ie. Birdie, V-Gen, etc), but…hopefully they can be compensated with something a bit more practical.

-ISMs:
X-ISM has lost pretty hardcore to V-ISM since the game was new. X-ISM characters take a bit more damage, more block damage, and they can’t AC, so they have to put up with more stupid guard damage shennanigans. A couple of random ideas I’ve had about this: X-ISM characters do extra damage if they land a super on someone who has V-ISM active, which sounds nice, even if it isn’t perfect (ie. V-Birdie vs X-Dhalsim). Or, that X-characters should take normal damage from VCs, and not their higher X-ISM damage rate.

Misc:

-Balrog gets the hitboxes from his arcade version attacks, if not the animations. Arcade Rog > console Rog.

-Honda’s ACs to A2-style damage, regardless, and his guard meter gets to be one notch longer. Also, it actually hits things. And he can do the A2-style short Ground Recovery roll, and towards+Roundhouse is faster and recovers better. Crouching Roundhouse recovers a bit faster, standing Jab cancels, Oicho starts a few frames faster, 720+P Super in A-ISM has instant startup. Jab headbutt remains good as anti-air, but the other versions is invulnerable low at startup. Can hold the charge for the headbutt super, ST style.

-Rose gets to combo after her AC again, and her Soul Illusion super does better damage- not A2 damage, but more than 1 point of damage. 2 points of damage would literally be a substantial improvement. Also, A2 crouching Fierce or the old Soul Throw priority would be nice.

-Birdie’s Level 1 super recovers at 0 advantage/disadvantage if blocked. Towards+Roundhouse and far standing Fierce become overheads, and as much as I love abusing Bull Horn, a better AA would be nice, even if it’s just Level 1 super getting better invulnerability, or the other levels juggling consistently for good damage. Bull Head has better recovery and does more stun damage, even if it’s still punishable. Crouching Roundhouse is faster and has better recovery time. Also, the old middle finger win pose from the Japanese version of A3 comes back. Also, it would be nice if crouching Jab were faster (even if it kept the crappy recovery time) so he could do crouching Jab -> Bull Head after activation. Would be nice if you could link crouching Short -> Jab or Short -> Bull Head off of a counter hit. Also, he can do the A2 style short Ground Recovery, since his roll is so horrifically slow.

-X-Sagat Tiger Uppercut does more damage and is 1-hit, OG style, also his Tiger Shots have better recovery time, though not quite O.Sagat level. A-Sagat’s crouching Fierce cancels, only into Level 3 supers, and Tiger Shots are less bad.

-Adon’s crouching Fierce recovers faster, standing Roundhouse recovers faster and hits crouchers. Overhead can be linked after with standing Short etc into super. Crouching Forward cancels into level 3s Roundhouse Jaguar Kick has better recovery time.

-Guy’s crouching Fierce can be cancelled. Takes A2 damage from ACs if hit during standing Strong.

-X/A-Sodom’s far standing Fierce becomes and overhead if the button is held down long enough, like A-Dhalsim’s Jab. Standing Forward hits crouchers. V-Sodom gets 2 versions of Tengu walking- the normal version, and the conditionally invulnerable one but which walks for a shorter distance.

-Charlie’s flash kick (Short, Roundhouse, whatever), works better as anti-air.

-Bison’s Psycho Crusher hits more consistently, and works better as anti-air. A-Bison maintains charge after Alpha Counter, and can return in the same position, behind the opponent, or a few steps back. Knee Press recovers more quickly, and is mostly safe on block. Level 1 Knee Press Nightmare recovers at a small frame advantage, and Level 2 is mostly safe. X-Bison’s Knee Press recovers at a small advantage, and Psycho Crusher moves and recovers faster. Fireball recovers faster. Knee Press starts a few frames faster, making it easier to do VCs with V-ISM Bison, even though nobody plays him, except this guy:
[media=youtube]Rxt0-J45UFg[/media]

-Rolento’s knife super starts faster and tracks a little better.

-Blanka’s jumping Fierce, Forward and Roundhouse hitboxes are changed so they hit more consistently; sometimes if you jump straight up with Forward for example, you’ll miss someone who’s standing/crouching beneath you, becasue the hitbox isn’t wide enough. Crazy guard break electricity thing is in effect. Rolling super can be done at an up/forward angle, or straight up, depending on what you do during the screen freeze. Crouching Fierce is a little more Cv2ish and recovers a bit more quickly, but keeps its anti-air properties. Crouching Strong recovers much more quickly, crouching Jab is quicker, close standing Strong is an overhead. Jumping Fierce crosses up more easily, d/f+Fierce slide recovers more quickly. Rainbow roll is faster, AC can at either the vertical angle it goes now, or something more like 45, like the rainbow roll. Both recover a bit more quickly than before. X-Blanka’s vertical roll hits on the way down, HF style. Yes. A-ISM fruit super has about half as much startup before/after the screen freeze.

-X-ISM Vega gets the flipkick back, and crouching Roundhouse knocks down from further away. Level 3 stab super actually hits things. A-ISM AC actually hits things. Jumping Roundhouse hitbox altered, crosses up more consistently, and both it and jumping Short have their hitboxes altered to hit more consistently (see notes on Blanka’s neutral jumping Forward/Roundhouse). Flipkick super hits for full damage more consistently when used as anti-air, instead of bouncing people away. Towards+Roundhouse becomes towards+Forward, regular Roundhouse becomes something more like the ST/CvS2 standing Roundhouse, and towards+Roundhouse is A3 standing Roundhouse, which is an overhead

-Cammy gets her SF4 divekick which is too good. Killer Bee Assault can’t be damage-reduced, V-Cammy’s counters actually work. Roundhouse Cannon Spike bounces away when blocked and is safe, except vs Psycho Crusher, Dash Punch, Rolling Attack etc. Backspin Knuckle is faster. I don’t really play Cammy enough to know what would help her. X-Cammy says Cannon Drill/Spin Knuckle/Thrust Kick (trivia: this audio was actually recorded for A3 but wasn’t used).

-I have no idea what Cody needs. Cody gets Haggar Assist.

-Mika gets Haggar Assist…? Crouching Forward, crouching Short and standing Roundhouse cancel, startup for kick super variations is faster. 360+P hop has better startup/recovery, Shooting Peach (the one that doesn’t turn aroud before) has faster startup by a few frames, and can actually be used like a Turn Punch etc to dodge/attack things more effectively.

-Balrog’s Turn Punch actually dodges thigs, on occasion, and then hits them; less startup time, moves faster, HF/ST/SF4 style, with X-Rog’s being a few frames shorter recovery. Crouching Roundhouse slightly faster, hitboxes a little better. Standing Fierce and/or Roundhouse hits hits crouchers. X/V-Balrog get the headbutt as a regular move and not just a Reversal; A-Balrog’s Reversal version has an input which is a bit wider, and does more stun damage. He also keeps the rising headbutt as an AC, and it does stun damage. Recovery on low Dash Punch a few frames shorter, X-Rog’s floating neutral jump Fierce moves further forward/backward. Level 2/3 super better vs low attacks, loses/trades less often and level 1 recovers at 1 frame advantage. Jump Forward or something else crosses up. Gigaton Blow has shorter startup, more like Blanka’s super without holding the charge. Crouching attacks hit Ground Recovery rolls more easily. Some sort of overhead would be nice.

-Juli’s Sniper Arrow has start up time more like Cammy’s Cannon Drill, and her Short DP bounces her away on block, making it hard to punish. Spin knuckle move is faster, standing Roundhouse and crouching Forward cancel, And she can do the Juli/Juni team-up supers as a level 3 720+P or K. Overhead allows a link crouching lights xx super, or crouching mediums xx Sniper Arrow etc on Counter Hit. Has the pushblock while jumping, for no good reason. AC in A-ISM actually hits and does stun damage. Psycho Charge like in Dramatic Battle; doesn’t build meter anymore, but reduces stun damage, sort of like a 3S taunt. DP auto-tracks to hit crossups.

-Juni gets an overhead punch out of her Hooligan for mixup purposes. Spiral Arrow has less recovery on block, Short is generally safe. A-ISM AC actually hits and does stun damage. Can do at least one of the Juli/Juni team supers as a 720 at level 3. Teleport has less recovery time and/or less startup time. Wakeup DP auto-tracks to hit crossups. A-Juni’s Psycho Streak super has faster startup, and if she’s hit in a trade, the Psycho Crusher continues forward (hitstun is altered so they can’t air-recover between hits when this happens). Works as anti-air.

Console characters I don’t know about. Fei was pretty good IIRC, though it would be nice if he had the heel hook move from SF4 for shits and giggles. Guile sucked in the PSX and Saturn versions, I don’t know if his hitboxes got better later. Short version on Guile: let him keep his ST stepkick in V-ISM, make his super hit for full damage on anti-air like his SF4 ultra, and make his flashkick actually good as anti-air, etc etc.

Believe it or not, this is a somewhat abridged version of my thoughts on changes to A3.

Thoughts?

X-ISM:
1 button throws, no guard meter, fast filling super (like in Super Turbo), remove “reversal only” condition for some moves (ex: Barlog’s headbutt).

now this is actually a “classic” mode, opposed to the half-assed shit in the original game. were the designers too retarded to think of these simple things? how was X-ISM (with guard meter and no ACs) ever supposed to hold its ground against V-ISM spam?

Birdie

He can already do this.

counter hit crouching Jab-> crouching Jab/VC-> whatever is a combo.

I did not know that…

Since you play Birdie, what do you think would help him out?

The problem with infinites is not just crouch canceling itself. It’s the fact that the counter hit state stays for a long time after the activation’s run out. Without the counter hit state, even with CCs, they’d fall after a few hits.

Just have it so that the counter hit state resets immediately after the activation ends and can’t be activated again for a few seconds. So even if you’re already in the state, it kicks you out.

Personally, I don’t think guard meter’s should stay permanently downgraded once you get GCed. I don’t like the fact that you can get caught in a guard crush loop, especially when so many corner VCs break guard within seconds. I understand that might be changing the game too much though.

Balance-wise

-Cody is fine the way he is. Maybe increase the start-up on his c. RH and make his jump MK cross-up more reliably.

-Sodom doesn’t need to be buffed. He’s already one of the best characters in the game

-All they really need to do balance-wise for the top tiers is slow Dhalsim down, fix his air throw range and add a bit of recovery to his normals/slides/drills.

-Tone down the priority on Chun’s jump MK a bit. Her ground game is already so good, she doesn’t need free jump-ins

-'Gief’s splash needs to be reduced a ton in priority

-Give Dan a proper DP and shoto jab chains, and he’ll be high mid-tier easily

-Give us console Boxer

-Birdie, Honda, Mika all need big balance tweaks.

**-V-Akuma’s unblockables are easily remedied by just making his demon flip follow-ups crouch blockable. **
-This would make him a lot less retarded, and he’d still be a very competitive character

Well my thinking was, there are a bunch of characters who aren’t overpowered (V-Cammy/Birdie/Rose etc) who can build a lot of meter or who even have reactivation infinites. I wouldn’t want to take out the Counter Hit state completely because you’re hurting a bunch of characters who are fine the way they are, and if anything need a little help.

No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying, lock out the counter hit state for a few seconds after the activate ends, and have it reset the state if you’re already in it, so that your next hit is a normal hit. I’m not saying remove it entirely.

This way, you can still get a few CC juggles, but you can’t just go into an infinite.

I’d probably change the v ism mode to be more like alpha 2.

Hittable out of the flash, and doesn’t last for 15-20 secs. Big damage is ok, as long as it happens quickly.

V-ism combos right now are pretty boring to watch.

Take out crouch/walk cancels, vism does little guard damage/chip damage, remove otg’s, no breaking away of guard. That way people who wanna use other isms can and maybe even compete without being godly.

a/x-sodom

standing fierce from far is that big slow move that looks like an overhead. it does good guard damage, and it can hit a crouching opponent. it has pretty good reach, but not that great.
but then at close range he does his most awesome poke. one of his most useful normals in v-ism. superb reach, but doesn’t hit a crouching opponent.

i think this should be reversed. the great poke with incredible reach should come out from far away. the big slow one that guard break a crouching opponent should come out when you get a bit closer. sometimes i wonder if they switched it around by accident <.<
the big slow one can also be useful from far tho. it can beat sweeps/slides. would be best to have both =(

his standing strong from far cant combo into super/special. while this same move can do that in v-ism. and it even comes out when your pretty damn close to your opponent. very annoying. it should combo.

edit: …or just give a/x-sodom full control over his strong and fierce. just like a-dhalsim.

Isn’t Street Fighter Alpha 3 Upper already a “remix” version of sfa3 and no one liked it cause they nerfed sim, made v-ism weaker, made a-ism stronger, took away crouch cancel, etc, etc.

Not sure what else was changed.

Anway, Sagat’s tiger shot needs to not suck so much.

Yup. Bet if there was an A3 remix, no one would play it.

Except Upper just made good things suck instead of making things that sucked better, and radically changed the gameplay. And Akuma and Sakura were probably still tops.

I’m thinking more along the lines of HD Remix, where you’re not trying to change the spirit of the game.

Some of you people are trying to turn the game into Alpha 2. If we wanted that, we would just make A2 Remix in the first place.

Some good ideas, especially boxer and claw getting flip kick/headbutt in A/X w/o reversal only condition. Also chun should get her air kicks in X w/o reversal as well.

I suggested that X-Chun get her charge fb back, but then she would lose her palm strike which in my opinion is useless in a practical situation because of its zero range. Unless you combo it or your opponent misses a fierce dragon punch you’re probably not going to hit with it.

The recovery only Juni’s ground drills should be the same as Cammy’s. Juni has dangerously more recovery than Cammy has using ground drills. Also her Bison super should do real damage.

5 frames more. Not really needed, I think, thanks to her strong Air Spiral arrow game.

Juni is annoying enough already with her air drill. She’s fine the way she is.

  1. Uncombo/dizzy out at a certain hit count, let’s say 20. Much less elegant than the OP’s solution, but would limit any further exploits

  2. A-ism gets a 15% damage boost from its current state

  3. X-ism: 1 button 0f throws, no guardbar, 15% damage boost from its current state. Damage bonus actually applies to supers, unlike in vanilla a3.

  4. V-ism gets further damage reduction on moves by about 10%

  5. Further pro-rate meter gain after a certain hit count in a combo.

  6. Whiffed throws have longer recovery, no meter gain

  7. Lessen activation invincibiliy. Somewhere in between Vanilla A3 and Upper

How are air throws going to work with one button throws given the range on some of them like Dhalsim’s, Sodom’s or Cody’s. I don’t like the idea of certain characters having such a powerful option select in the air.

A3 had the perfect throw system in my opinion. First, it’s a 2 button system so you can’t just option-select it.
Also, you don’t take much damage, but you still get thrown back meaning you lose positioning, whereas in something like 3S or SF4, you’re both pushed back to an equal neutral position, which is stupid because the aggressor gains no advantage from taking the initiative and loses a lot of their momentum at the same time.

Mazi-level damage with no guard bar wouldn’t be overpowered, but I don’t think A3 was designed to be a high damage game, especially since counter hits have a high damage bonus and the hitboxes were designed around this.

I don’t think I’d want to fight a Dhalsim that does that much on single hits, and god forbid you get counter hit by Gen’s crane stance c. FP in that ISM; you’d lose like 40%. Capcom was clearly very wary of increasing game damage because it imposed so many limitations on X-ISM (no air block, no tech roll, one super, lower defense). Something like the Cody VS Gen match-up would become really annoying (especially with big V-ISM nerfs), since mantis c. FP already shuts down almost all of his ground/air options, and now it would become a killing tool as well.

If you want high damage in an alpha-esque system, I think A2 is more suited to that (although alpha counters sort of mess up the offensive game).

V-ISM’s damage doesn’t need to be lowered even more, you could just drastically reduce the damage that’s done during activation. Even the best VCs are no huge deal if they only do like 30%, and the meter refills a lot slower. The problem right now is that you have shit that covers too many fronts, does 50-95% and can be used again almost immediately.

The other better alternative, I think, is to nerf the damage but also make it so the bar fills up very slowly, and VCs can only be used at 100%, making them more of a once a round thing rather than something that’s used constantly. That way, they retain their utility, but aren’t game breaking, and people have to think more before they use it against X/A-ISM characters because once it’s gone, they almost definitely won’t have a chance to do it again.

I already outlined how to fix stuff like Akuma’s unblockable (let people crouch block the demon flip follow-ups).
Other unblockables or guard crush VCs aren’t as a big a danger if CC infinites are removed, since by the time they break your guard, they generally don’t have enough meter left to do much damage. And they can be alpha countered, which is a much greater blow if the other person can’t get enough meter back to activate again that round.

Whiffed throw recovery is fine, just make it so it doesn’t build meter. Same with the air hurricanes on the shotos.

One thing that has to be done for sure is to fix up some of the character’s alpha counters. Not having a reliable one is a big disadvantage sometimes.

bump: remove that fullscreen white flash from Counter Hits :bgrin: