Nope. Doesn’t pushback almost at all. Both were originally designed to have more active frames (evidence in hurtbox durations/physics/graphical effects in the character file) so they keep moving forward long after they hit. LK is only safe if it hits on the last frame, MK is never safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc4GmfuiOpE
The best example of a command character with easy safe specials that they can buffer? Viper. LP/MP Thunder Knuckle are -2 and -1F respectively.
Also, Dudley’s LP MGB is safe right?
-2F so yeah, safe vs anyone but a grappler or someone with a really good super. Though at specific ranges you can whiff the last hit and be unsafe.
Bison is -1 on Sk that is absolutely true. It can be punished if the Bison plays sloppily so I’ll gladly grant you ‘absolutely safe’ for this topic since we are talking about the higher tier of play.
I try to keep my points concise and as factual as I can, so that might be why I come off as so ‘determined’ or even snippy.
Again if anyone is on the PC looking for a bout I play as Decapre and Dictator as ‘Blacque’.
This is exactly what I wanted to see from the community. A slew of people with differing views coming together to discuss what has at times devolved into a sensitive sore-butt fest of obnoxious “U N00B” isms. I’m very glad that the participants have been keeping it clean and level headed.
For the majority of what I’ve seen there is a lot that supports my view. Boiling it down to simply “Command is better,” is not fair or accurate and I can admit that. I would say that for a starting player ‘command’ is better because how many new players start off as Ryu simply because he’s more well known, but also because somewhere in the vast media landscape the motions for a DP or a hado have been learned.
Some suspect that the knowledge is gained during fetal development along with Up, Up Down Down left Right Left Right, for those who would be born into the sophisticated class of ‘True Gamer’.
I digress. I’ll stick to my former statement and believe that command is the way to go for the highest tier of play. It does not mean that no charge character will ever hit that level. It just means that if you were given a year to practice a character in preparation for a big event. I think that you’re better off spending that year practicing someone with command functions, over someone with charge functions. The reasons I posted above are examples as to why.
I will state for clarity that charge characters obviously have their place, but as was mentioned by: Naeras where core game mechanics may in fact work against them, or in cases like Decapre function in addition at the end of a combo chain for added damage. (Fadc into air throw after Sting).
I played Bison for a year and never learned to Focus or FADC because outside of perhaps getting a crumble for an Ultra attempt it never seemed worth the effort. That was a core mechanic that I never mastered during my developing time along the game that would have been mastered and under my belt had I adopted any number of command characters (I imagine, just speculation)
I fault no one but myself as I’m aware that even Bison can benefit from some decent focus knowledge and FADC (That Slide FADC actually won me a victory once! huzzah). My point is that the immediate need was never present (Again from my perspective).
to RadicalFuzz
I don’t recall you asking me to not mention ‘near perfect’ situations regarding those characters but a Bison performing light sk and not being nailed by a grappler is a Bison who knows his spacing. A grappler can get hold of Bison after a poorly executed light sk now.
You did however affirm the main point of my argument as follows in your statement here:
-I still hold that charge character’s special moves are on average better than command characters, if only slightly, particularly for spacing. They also usually have a few good normals, but not enough to conclude that the reason is because they’re charge characters. I believe that the reason you don’t see them in tournament top 8s as often is because they’re more difficult to play and control, and because their advantages in spacing are minor.-
While I do not agree that charge characters moves are ‘on average better’. The main part that I think has a great deal of impact is that they ARE more difficult to play and control. Their advantages may not be seen until the intermediate or higher levels at which point the same time invested would yield more from a command character.
This is not to say the argument is won or loss but that we see eye to eye on a single point among many! Let the words continue!
Also has anyone ever just screwed the F word really loud when you try to head stomp with Bison and he lands on the other side of the opponent because they decided to step forward or backwards? As for your questions regarding Decapre’s abilities I’ll only say that “If I guess right I will murder you,” however “If I guess wrong I’m dead.” However the ability for me to murder you is reliant upon perfect timing and execution and if I drop a combo in my attempt to murder you, I will take far more damage than I would have dished out, so take that with a grain of salt. I don’t often know ‘frame data’ off the top of my head and I’m looking more for the general gaming dialogue and experience. By all means provide frame data as I do understand it (at least) but asking me for the specifics is like asking a door for a handy jay. Sure you might get it but it won’t be what you really wanted.
The thing is, as others noted, if you selected any random 9 characters there is a good chance of getting a similar spread and not having any of them be in the top 5 characters.
It boils more down to the fact that there are only 9 charge characters vs 35 command characters meaning the chances of a top 5 character being a command character is 4x as likely just mathematically.
Veserius is a Decapre/Blanka player and he thinks Decapre is better than Ryu or Cody. Generally speaking Ryu is considered mid to upper mid and Cody is considered upper part of low tier or the bottom part of mid tier. (event hubs puts him at 37th out of 44 (7th worst) but they also put makoto at 35th/44 so they can’t really be trusted lol.)
If you look at results it’s looking like charge characters are the best they’ve been since Super in USF4.
TFC top 16 (which was pretty stacked)
8 appearances of charge characters in top 16. Again, remember there are 4x as many command characters as charge characters and over half of ALL charge characters are in top 16 in this tournament.
When you consider results you need to also consider far far less people play charge characters as there aren’t nearly as many of them and the variety of play styles isn’t as well represented. Until Decapre came out the only real “rush down” type charge characters were Blanka and Balrog neither of whom have particularly good mix ups and Blanka has a lot of problems of his own. Otherwise you play a zoner or pure footsies character.
Ultimately it sounds like what you want to hear is that you should switch to a command character if you want results. Well, by all means give it a try! You might find you do better with a command character. Sometimes you need to switch it up, or need to find a character that truly clicks for you. However just being a command character wont net you results any more than being a charge character will keep you from them.
That’s a very good point you’ve brought to the table. The numbers of x versus y. I will state that I do switch up from time to time using Akuma and I’ve always been a Rose fan. I also did quite well with Gouken. Truth be told it’s where I began to question the charge characters.
I got to B so much easier with Rose, Gouken and Akuma than I ever did with Bison and especially Decapre (playing her really was a change of pace) So I do round out pretty well.
Once more I’m not looking for a ‘world changing’ event in this discussion. I brought this up for discussion so that many opinions can be checked over looked over and understood from the community at large.
Naturally I love hearing when people agree with me (who doesn’t) but I’m not dismissing outright any claims to the contrary of my opinion. It’s simply my perspective.
The lack of charge characters as you stated is a point of merit. Is the lack because of design or because of accessibility? Or is it just random I wonder? If Charge characters could hold their own on equal footing why wouldn’t there be an even split? Is there more of a demand for command characters? What are the thoughts of the community on this?
Seems to me that having more charge characters does make it more likely that a new player will pick up a character and have more readily available results, which leads back to my original point of ‘command’ having the advantage in the long term.
I would like to again clear the air by saying that this is not an attempt to change minds, play styles or habits in game. It’s merely an observation which I’ve experienced and seen repeated on forums “Charge sucks” or “Command sucks,” discussions. I don’t believe Charge sucks but I do want to open the discussion to the possibility that charge does suffer some advantages late tier due to various factors without the typical (Lrn 2 play n00b) commentary.
So far the discussion has been amazing and I’ve picked up a lot that HAS actually altered my perspective.
The changes to my perspective are as follows for those who are interested.
Charge characters are geared more for the intermediate to high teir character.
That each tier is almost consistently represented by a charge character on some level.
That the tactical side of charge characters is one of if not their largest benefit (I gathered this on my own after reading all of the posts in this discussion.)
The numbers go to the command characters which may in fact hinder the appearance of charge characters late game. As I said if many new players pick Ryu or Ryu hybrids… it speaks for itself. Not a fault of the mechanics but player choice.
I think that the charge character lack of creation is a combination of randomness, and the fact that they aren’t as easy to make. Charge characters moves are (imo) tougher to balance because you need to balance the strength of the move with the time of the charge and consider more factors when designing them. There is also more tendency for input overlaps as there are only 2 possible charges (down and back) whereas a command character has QCF, QCB, HCF, HCB, DP, Reverse DP, Tiger Knee and 360 as possible inputs. Not to mention odd inputs like Down Down or Up Up for Akuma/Hakan/Hugo.
Then you have to consider the charge time when creating hitstop on normals. Charge characters can build more charge during the impact freeze time from hitstop. With a motion character all that matters is the hitstun to determine if a move links or a cancel combos. You need to consider hitstop as well with charge characters. You also need to consider links more because you need to create links that allow a character enough time to build charge for their special move, but not so fast that they could abuse it with loops.
Need I remind you of 3DS Touch Screen Guile? He had no charge times so he could literally do crLP - Sonic boom - crLP - sonic boom - crLP - sonic boom in the corner.
The other factor is just randomness on the part of Capcom’s design team.
Well, Gen won Evo (Xian). I guess you can kind of call Gen a charge character, maybe?
Not really, especially AE2012 Gen who NEVER uses rolls.
AE2012 Gen only used charge for wall dives which were only done for knockdown setups. USF4 Gen CAN use Rolls but rarely does because it’s still really inconsistent.
He is KIND of a charge character but only in the most loose sense in that he is a character with charge moves. However 95% of the time he isn’t use them. That is why I said “if you count him” when I first brought him up.
Claw and Boxer were top tier in ST.
So I think charge characters are just different. Not at an inherent disadvantage.
Can grapplers punish moves that are -1 on block? I thought that every non-ultra command grab was at least 2 frame startup. I checked the SRK wiki but I’m hesitant to trust it.
This is what I said when I meant not counting Spiral Arrow when it’s only safe on the very tip.
Thanks for the correction Eternal.
I think the main problems charge characters has is their lack of a good OS game compared to the command characters.
Super and Ultra can if they are in range.
The main (maybe only?) reason Guile was so viable in SSF4 was because of his damage output. How else would a character with almost zero rushdown potential and a reversal intentionally handicapped by Capcom to not auto-correct against cross-ups (despite it already being at a disadvantage as a charge move) approach the high tiers?
Also, I main Guile, with Honda and Dee Jay as my only backups, so I find this article particularly relevant… =)
What i wrote a few months ago.
Thanks for correcting me about super, I forgot that they’re also one frame.
I think the way we look at charge characters and command characters seriously helps us understand the game better. A lot of what I’m seeing here is helping me understand a lot of fundamental facts that I’ve either forgotten, overlooked, or never even really knew in the first place.
A grappler can in fact nail a -1 move (Light Scissor Kick) if the range isn’t perfect. It made me GROAN when I realized that I hit my L sk too deep and got pile drivered for it.
As for 3DS Guile puking sonic booms… I…- I don’t even…
Since the topic has gotten some steam I’ll refrain from addressing the same points or clarifying them as that’s pretty much been done. I am glad so many have taken an interest and are genuinely helping me out with the nearly headache inducing cognitive dissonance I’ve had to put up with in this.
Charge characters are harder to play than Command characters (Former opinion) They take longer blah blah.
Has boiled more so down to. Who did you start out with? What’s your natural affinity with the game in the first place. Which freaking charge character did you pick first?
I lament the brand new player who picks up Decapre first and then just rages the hell out and never plays again lol.
Though I felt that way about Gief. Who picks up a 360 character first? A brave soul that’s who.
You put a lot of what I was wondering to rest Veserius. Unfortunately my knowledge of in depth game mechanics didn’t let me eloquently put it into words. What I’d like to know is what the community thinks Capcom has given charge characters to make up for these downsides. If you feel that they have offered nothing then I’ll keep that in my back pocket to mull over while the community pushes on. I do agree though with a lot of what you offer outside of 3rd Strike knowledge as I only played it once and was never a great player at it.
Also for the Gen victory, the question on my mind is did he utilize Gen’s charge abilities in conjunction with his command abilities? It’s a very very specific situation admittedly but if his charge abilities were just as good as the command abilities why not? Or did he stick to command for the consistency, fluidity of the movements etc. This is a genuine question as I was not present to see the video though I will check it out. I also have NO idea how to Gen so he could do x, y and z and I’d just nod smile and hope to beat him to death before it hit me.
You’d need to fuck up hard in order to get super’d for a light scissor kick. Like, it would have to be the most stupid scissor kick in the history of the game to get punished for it with super.
knock gief down, point blank meaty scissors missing the first hit.
FOR MOTHER RUSSIA