I have a couple of questions about Ken, and I was hoping you guys can help me understand the character better.
After getting a knockdown, I see Ken players walk up to the opponent and do cr. short, standing jab as the opponent wakes up. Then the Ken players will typically go for a throw. My question is why do the standing jab? Wouldn’t doing a cr. jab after the cr. short be more useful in covering up the intention to throw, as cr. short into cr. jab looks like you’re hit confirming for super (prompting the opponent to keep blocking or go for a red parry). Or is this a way to prevent the opponent from jumping out? My vision for options are narrow, so I can’t really think of any other explanation.
Also (playing as Ken), after getting a hard knockdown on a shoto after SA3, I do the super jump ambiguous cross up (after doing a standing strong). It seems like the opponent can just wake up shoryu or grab to get out of it. Am I not timing the jump properly?
I have a couple of questions about Ken, and I was hoping you guys can help me understand the character better.
After getting a knockdown, I see Ken players walk up to the opponent and do cr. short, standing jab as the opponent wakes up. Then the Ken players will typically go for a throw. My question is why do the standing jab? Wouldn’t doing a cr. jab after the cr. short be more useful in covering up the intention to throw, as cr. short into cr. jab looks like you’re hit confirming for super (prompting the opponent to keep blocking or go for a red parry). Or is this a way to prevent the opponent from jumping out? My vision for options are narrow, so I can’t really think of any other explanation. </div>
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Against most characters, st.Jab will whiff unless they are standing, this can lead to a few things…<div style=“font-style: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-style: normal;”>#1. cr.Short is blocked, st.Jab whiffs. This puts you closer to your opponent than a blocked cr.Jab, also, since they aren’t in block stun, you can throw them almost immediately.</div><div style=“font-style: normal;”><br></div><div>#2. cr.Short hits and st.Jab combos. This can be easily confirmed into Jab Shoryu, also it can be option selected as there are a few recovery frames of the st.Jab, so if it isn’t blocked or it connects, the Shoryu won’t come out. It’s more unlikely that your opponent will block low (cr.Short), then additionally block the st.Jab, so this is a <i>relatively</i> safe choice.</div><div style=“font-style: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-style: normal;”>#3. cr.Short is blocked, st.Jab is Red Parried. If you incorporate the option select Shoryu, you will automatically attempt to punish their parry with the Jab Shoryu.</div><div style=“font-style: normal;”><br></div><div style=“font-style: normal;”>The option select works the same way as the st.Strong to Shoryu option select, in which you press punch during the recovery of the move so that if it’s parried, you “auto” Shoryu, but in st.Jabs case, you input P when it would combo, so during it’s active frames.</div>
<span style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”>cr.LK->st.LP will combo if the opponent is standing, in which they can hitconfirm into Shoryuken. If the st.LP whiffs from them crouching, they can go for a throw. It’s a basic Shoto option select(ish) situation.</span><div><span style=“font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal;”><br></span></div><div>EDIT: Pft, I didn’t even read telesniper’s post because it didn’t show the new page…</div>
I have another question related to my narrow perspective on situational options. When I block a jump-in attack, I want to either keep blocking a possible ongoing combo or tech a possible grab. Let’s assume my opponent can: 1.) continue a tight block string after the jump-in attack, 2.) grab 3.) do a frame trap so that it beats any attempt to tech a grab. I’ve been trying to avoid this situation altogether by getting reads and do air to air. I some times walk under the jump-in (a little hard as I need a good read–so I don’t walk into a sweep–and it’s spacing dependent–I avoid the jump-in in time). Although I try to avoid the situation, what would be a good option if I blocked the jump-in. Is it just a pure guessing game from that point? I’ve tried crouch tech option select, but it still seems to get beat. Also, I hate teching grabs with characters with short throw range.
Alright so from what you wrote, the first thing that popped in my mind was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQEB1QFnusw
It’s a great video covering viable options in an anti-air situation (so against a jump-in)
Besides what’s in the video, here’s my take on your question. That won’t be of much help I’m afraid but anyway always a good reminder.
After you’ve blocked the initial jump-in attack, I’d advise to immediately start crouch blocking and try to techtrow (or crouch tech OS) any suspicious throw setups -on reaction- Usually there are some “staples” setups before a throw depending on characters, thinking specifically about shotos right now.
But yeah, basically it’s all about guessing games… there’s no absolute better/safer option other than the classic crouch blocking imo. Don’t be too hasty to press buttons either. Oh and from my experience, watch out for the jump-in attack --> backdash --> cr.mk xx super. That gets me a lot of time (and even top players)…
Out of the 3 options you listed, blocking keeps you safe from 2 of them. Of course if you get thrown, you’re gonna have to face another wakeup mixup situation ^^
In the end, you’re gonna have to decide when it’s better to try to tech or even attempt a parry or poking depending on: how much meter they have, if they can inflict you big damage with a hitconfirm or not, etc.
Well, I mostly hope the video will help you haha. =)
I was watching Kazuya Alex vs Matsuken Ken set on Youtube, and saw Matsuken go for crossup forward then immediately backdash every time. shotos will definitely do that a lot and look for you to hit a button or whiff throw. it’s a cool option. though probably dependent on already having conditioned you to expect throw/target combo/short short upon landing.
Cong, I think Watts started doing it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when to keep things in stride. You could try low short tick grab but with the standing jab they are 1.) still seeing attacks 2.) still hearing buttons pressed 3.) still see themselves blocking due to the block stance short forces out of the opponent.
One or any combinations of those three could be it. There’s also the combo into uppercut but I think it’s good for forcing the next event/string.
How should Chun and Ken players approach the Akuma matchup for players who like to play keepaway until they decide to go for their offense, which is basically a simplified JR Rodriguez? Do you just wait for them and build meter while they jump around, or do you chase them down? And once they do start going for their offense, is getting out of demon flip setups really just a guessing game or are there clean options that will beat most of his possibilities?
thank you. I guess that should be obvious if I think about it. but then again that’s why I posted it in the new player FAQ. I have been working with “just sit back and wait for them to come to you” and it has been suboptimal.
imo stay grounded for one. gouki already has very good anti air options, but all his fireballs cause a knockdown when you get hit by them airborne. unless you have a good angle to hit him with j.ex tatsu or hp,hp he is stronger in the air than ken or chun.
what do you mean by demon flip setups? like post sa1? if so, ex SBK deals with ambiguous xups, and even experienced players have a hard time stuffing it. another thing to consider is that if they don’t have another sa1 stocked, its less likely they will go for a low attack since c.mk has slow startup.
In the case of Chun I’d say its definitely worth it to build meter. Chun getting fully stocked is a much bigger powerup than Gouki getting fully stocked.
lastly, its doubly important to have your reversals down against keepaway Gouki. in general stay patient and wait for an opening. you really only need 2. study the vulnerable areas of jump fb.
thanks, that’s all helpful. for demon flip I really mean anything where I’m waking up and can’t move around freely. will EX SBK deal with most of his available options (that don’t stuff it)?
I mainly brought up ex SBK as an option to deal with an ambiguous xup since it hits on both sides, although on second thought, since Gouki demon flip xups usually mean that the non xup version will have the demon flip kick hitting you, it might not be that great.
its actually pretty tough to deal with demon flip as a chun player. its imo Goukis biggest strength in that matchup (hence why you see guys like Uraken basically flying that entire match). default to block and react to the mixup when he lands. parry only if the gouki player is being very obvious with his timing for the demon flip kick. if you’re waking up when hes at the peak of his demon flip, RH and to a lesser extent stand lp work decent. you can also try jump back lk.
Ken has it easier. same advice about defaulting to block, but when you have time to go for lp SRK, do it everytime. even trading here is worse for the Gouki player. jump back RH is also great tool when you’re afraid you’ll be hit during your shoryu motion.
you really just want to avoid getting hit by the deep demon flip kick since this yields a full jump in combo for the gouki player. everything else doesn’t pay off nearly as well. this is why I advise avoiding parry unless its totally obvious.
I’d study top Chuns/Kens vs Jiro and Uraken as those guys really get the most mileage out of demon flip. generally if you block it out, you’ll find yourself back in a neutral position, not having to deal with a really tough demon flip mixup again unless they score a good knockdown on you.
cool thanks for the advice. one more question: when dealing with demon flips on your wakeup, is this a situation where staggering whether you quick roll or not is going to be helpful? I assume this will mess with timings and spacings. though of course post SA1 that’s not an option.
Hey Bob, jump back instant lp is low damage but very effective at knocking away demon flip.
Actually Pherai, I’m remembering that Zabi vs Magi battle. Zabi was eventually using cl.mp, into tatsu usually, as a post sa1 option on chun. At the time I was wondering why not use cl.mk since it has a few better properties but now I wonder if mp was to stuff Ex.SBK. Maybe the hitbox or startup line up better to win out. Nica messed around with cl.mk to stuff SBK on a stream and he found you had to delay it a bit to work.
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Just popped onto ESN’s site to check out the frame data and hit boxes and general movement of the two normals. There are some big unexpected differences it seems. Mp is a frame slow on startup and stays out for a frame less than Mk as well as having worse hit/block stun making Mk seem like the better normal overall. Mk is a wired when you look at the bones though. It has a good size two part hit box that stays out for a couple frames then it shrinks down to one tiny box for the remaining hit frames and right after active frames it leaves a fat blue limb hurt box for a bit. On top of that the startup animation moves the body hurt box way forward from neutral. Mp on the other hand comes out at a decent size and stays out like that for the whole hit period. The body hurt box doesn’t really move forward either. Somewhere in those differences is the reason I see Japanese Gouki use cl.mp instead of cl.mk in certain situations like ambiguous xups.
I think there’s 2 reasons. First yeah, I think meaty MP is the best move to stuff wakeup ex SBK (actually UOH might be best but requires good timing for a decent follow up). Another reason tho is pushback on cl.mp is less than cl.mk. MOV taught me against Chun that after regular dive kick pretty much always go for cl.mp x mk tatsu, but same principle applies to after xups.
that frame data explains a lot tho! reminds me of an old gvision ranbat vid with Jiro vs Tokido. Jiro stuffs wakeup ex SBK with a really late timed meaty HP x HP shoryu x sa2 ftw. Looks fuckin sick but I can’t find it anymore.
tangetial but on the subject of cl.mp, I’ve been noticing the spacing after Gouki’s target combo (block or hit) puts you at a great range to punish a reactionary c.mk or far HP. take it for a spin!
on the topic of quickroll and not.
imo the only time you want to pretty much always quickroll is if you are knocked down such a distance away that they cannot possibly follow up unless you don’t quickroll.
any other time i really doubt any advantage gained from quickrolling.
there are also times when due to positioning quickrolling is just a bad choice since itll corner you.
it shouldn’t ever be something you just default to.
if they want to corner you and you don’t quick roll they need to push you which is also using up their time. any time advantage they gain doesn’t really matter since you can see any setup coming that requires that kind of time advantage.
shoto short x3 as a hit confirm into super - just useful to give yourself more time to confirm, or other reasons too? I was thinking it might be meant to catch people who block for a split second then try to jump out but not sure. I know it has definitely caught me for that reason at least.
Usually there are some “staples” setups before a throw depending on characters, thinking specifically about shotos right now.