I’m curious as to what you feel the “identity” of Street Fighter is and how 3s fails to fit within that identity. Also, what are these elements you’re talking about that 3s has abandoned?
At its core, 3s is like any other SF game in that it features 1 on 1 fighting. That is the basis of SF. As has been said, SF2 abandoned some of the things that were prevalent in SF1, so does that make it a bad game?
yeah, uh, actually, the difference between 3S and Street Fighter 2 is muuuuch smaller than Street Fighter and Street Fighter 2. I think the argument about 3S being a bad Street Fighter is utterly ridiculous. The basis of SF is there, if we’re talking on a purely mechnical level. Normals, Specials (especially fireballs), and Supers. Is the balance between them different, and does parrying add a new dimension? Of course it does. But it does not make it any more or less SF-ish. For me, parrying has became a very interesting aspect of SF. It’s close-minded and totally deterministic to say that 3S is a bad Street Fighter. It just has a different flavor.
How about priority tables that make some sense?
Or how about jumps that aren’t the safest thing to do?
Gameplay that isn’t dominated by normals?
The more you play 3s, the less if feels like Street Fighter. That isn’t a surprise since the design goal of the game was to make it very different than the games before it, so much so that Ken and Ryu were originally not in the game.
MK is as much SF as 3s by that criteria.
Like what?
I agree with you about the priority tables, but that’s more to do with the characters and balance themselves, not whether or not the game feels like SF or not. It seems more likely that you’ll trade hits on a lot of moves. The priority system has always been a little funny since Hyper Fighting IMO. Really? A standing jab that can beat something like Blanka’s Roll? F’real?
As far as jumping, I don’t think it’s much less safe than it’s ever been other than the fact that you can air-block/air-parry. But then, you could air-block in the Alpha games too.
I think normals having more weight is kinda nice after the SF2 games that were dominated by specials. But the fact that 3s takes place in a more confined space changes which moves are useful. Fireballs no longer carry the weight they used to because your opponent can instantly be over to where you are, which, IMO is a good thing. I’ve been playing SF since WW came out, and if it was one thing I was tired of, it was the dependence on specials, especially by shoto players.
I’ve heard people say that Ken & Ryu weren’t supposed to be in the game, but I’ve never seen anyone produce an actual source for that one, so I can only assume it’s hearsay. 3s was an evolution int he SF gameplay/engine. If it plays like ST, then there’s something wrong. To me, it feels perfectly like Street Fighter, but it’s a different Street Fighter. Old strats don’t necessarily work in this new game and that’s part of what I like about it. It caused me to have to step up MY game and change rather than stick to the same old bread & butter strats.
Touche. MK vs. SF anyone? 
Yeah, that was a bit of a general example I made, but the point still stands. It’s 1 on 1 fighting with a certain malleable game engine. ST doesn’t play a ton like WW, is that no longer SF?
WEll, for one, SF1 was dominated by normals. Though that was partially because a lot of folks (myself included) seemed to only be able to pull off specials by accident. 
And to others how the priority table work is what makes a game feel the way it does.
3s is the only game where you can punish AA attempts with no bar and no initial attack.
That’s the most ridiculous part - jumping is safer in 3s than in any other SF, and the Alpha series had air blocking!
I think fireballs in VF would be kinda nice.
3s takes place in a more confined space???
3s has super jumps and zoning has been all but eliminated. If anything there is more room to work with in 3s.
Actually the real threat is the fact that fireballs can be ignored by a parry. Plus fireballs have retarded recovery in 3s.
That’s fine.
I’ve been playing VF since it came out, and the one thing I am tired of is the dependence on normals.
You see. Giving VF a plethora of specials and changing the identity of the game may be something I prefer, but it doesn’t make it a good VF.
I personally read it in an EGM back in 97.
Something wrong with SF4?
I understand that, but you haven’t actually given any reasons why.
So general it was irrelevant.
No it doesn’t. You can’t make an irrelevant point and turn around and claim it’s valid.
ST plays alot like WW. In fact if you know how to play one you can easily pick and play the other.
If you know how to play ST, you certainly won’t know how to play 3s.
See the difference.
Except it wasn’t. Out of any SF, SF1 was all specials.
That isn’t really one of the ways in which I would determine whether a game “plays like SF” or not but I can see your point. The mechanics are still there, tech throws, supers, the blocking, the special move commands, etc. It’s merely an extension of what came before with a few different mechanics thrown in.
There’s also a backdash which you can use to back away from the jump in and punish. 3s is about reading your opponent (read JiBbo’s thread) and if you get punished fro trying to AA more than once or twice, you’re not playing it right. Jumping is only as safe as you allow it to be.
I’m talking laterally. The stages in the SF2 games seem bigger, and Viscant was right in a sense that in 3s, many of the characters are semi-grapplers, and this is because fighting takes place up closer. Sure there’s more vertical space, but who cares? This isn’t Marvel.
Projectiles are rendered less important in ANY game that has a parry function, not just 3s. you can’t ignore a fireball, you still have to parry, block, jump, or get hit by it. It’s an obstacle just as it was before. you just have one more option this time. Does being able to jump straight up over fireballs render them useless? It means you have to be artful as to when to use them rather than just throwing them indiscriminately. I STILL hit people with fireballs even though they could parry them all day if they wanted to. You’re playing Theory Fighter here.
Except that VF is supposed to be more of a reality based game that’s never had specials like that. SF has had normals since its inception, so moot point. If all SF ever had were special moves, then you’d have something but it’s never been that way. Some games just put more emphasis on certain movesets or elements.
I’m sure you have a good memory, but that alone isn’t proof.
Though I’ll admit that I haven’t played SF4 yet, I highly doubt it plays a ton like ST. First of all, the Focus Attacks are a different element, much like the parry was, when added to the mix. If they said, “This game is going to play just like Super Turbo” well, then I’d probably tune out and go back to playing 3s. If people want a game that plays like ST, PLAY ST then already! I don’t get why every SF game has to play like an SF2 game to “feel like Street Fighter.”
Because it shares some of the same basic elements that SF has always had. Certain special move commands, throw commands, the way the characters handle, the super move system, blocking…They’re all similar enough to the previous inceptions of the game yet they’ve evolved past that. I don’t really understand why one would say the game doesn’t play like SF just becuase the priority table is different, but that’s just me. Each SF game (excepting the EX games of course) takes elements from the previous games and mixes them in with new elements, which is as it should be. I mean, why make a new game play exactly like the old game?
Not necessarily. When I first started playing ST, I didn’t know how to tech a throw or how to use a super move, and those are pretty big parts of playing ST if you want to win. Some of the same techniques one would use in WW will work in ST, but by and large, it’s got a decent learning curve even for folks who’ve played the previous games. Execution was even MORE paramount in ST.
With 3s, there are certain techniques that you could carry over from previous games. But it’s not like you’re starting entirely from scratch. If you don’t want to have to learn to things and adapt, then stick with ST. Man, what is it with some in the fighting game community and their refusal to learn and adapt to new things?
Lulwhut? O_o
A lot of other games have the mechanics you mention, like KOF, but KOF is not Street Fighter.
You’re not punishing a jump, you’re punishing when they are on the ground, which is only a 50/50 chance of punish anyway.
Every good fighter is about reading your opponent.
No, jumping is far safer in 3s than any other SF. So safe in fact that Gootecks pointed out that the biggest obstacle for 3s players going to SF4 is accepting how unsafe jumps are.
Jumps in 3s are simply safe to do.
Probably due to zoning. However there is more room to function in 3s due to lack of a range game.
The game does play up close, but that doesn’t mean there is less space, it just means that in order to deal any useful damage you need to get into throw range due to lack of useful ranged attacks, not because the fight area is small.
Sure, but we are talking about Street Fighter, and the SF3 series happens to be the SF with parries.
The homogeneous speed of fireballs in 3s coupled with the parry render them virtually useless. In other SF fireball speed is highly variable. In 3s a fast fireball and a slow fireball don’t have a significant difference. Coupled with the large parry window and fireballs are almost useless.
They are obstacles in the same sense that a pothole is an obstacle and the grand canyon is an obstacle. However such obstacles are on vastly different levels.
No, because you have to commit to something in order to jump them. There is a risk vs reward factor that doesn’t really exist with parries.
Fireballs being worse in 3s isn’t a theory, it’s a fact.
Less speed, more recovery, less damage in 3s.
Sure.
I want big giant Tekken style juggles and combos in my VF.
I’m not trying to prove anything to you. I simply offer the information, what you accept is not my concern.
Maybe you need to watch more vids?
So does KOF. So does MK.
That doesn’t make those games Street Fighter.
And interestingly enough you don’t need to know such things if you use an original character.
Take O. Sagat or O. Ken and you know how to play ST.
Very little about SF pressure and interaction in battle carried over to 3s. So in many ways you needed to start over beyond the inputs.
Have you even played SF1?
I’m curious to know how you could end the game without specials.
Mario, lol…
like just stop.
You’ve been playing SF for what seems like 3 weeks and you’re arguing with a man who was playing on SF1 cabs in high school.
Like you’re not going to win.
lol?
:rolleyes:
SF originated a lot of those mechanics. Just because other games use them doesn’t them any less part of SF.
Some more than others. 3s places much more importance on it than previous SF games IMO.
Just because the ability to do it exists, doesn’t mean it will happen. Again, you’re playing Theory Fighter here. You’ve fallen into the trap of thinking that everyone who’s ever picked up the game will be a parrying expert.
Some characters have more of a range game than others, Necro and Oro being easy examples. Again, Viscant was right in that many of the characters present in 3s are semi-grapplers, which leads me to believe that they were trying to make an engine that put less importance on range games and turtling and more on up close knock-down-drag-out type fighting. You may be right about lack of range =/=smaller stages though. For some reason they seem a lot smaller to me in 3s than they did in any of he SF2 games.
Again, it’s kind of narrow minded to think that just because they don’t serve the same purpose as they did in previous SF games that projectiles are useless. Would you say they’re useless in KoF because you can cancel them there too?
If you jump straight up and your opponent is more than halfway across the screen, there’s no way they could get to you in time to punish you for jumping in ST. Parrying takes the risk of possibly messing up the timing, especially if it’s an EX fireball. Again, you’re Theory Fighting and assuming that everyone’s a parry master.
It’s an opinion. If you don’t find them useful, that’s fine, but i still find good uses for them even if I don’t use them as much as I did in SF2. Hell, I didn’t use them a whole lot in the Alpha games though either, but my style changed with the games. They’ve been putting less emphasis on projectiles since Alpha, so 3s’s take on them is just another link in a chain that already started long before it was even thought of.
Maybe, but it seems to me that it’s got more in common with the Alpha games than ST at this point. Either way, I hope it’ll play different enough to stand on its own without people feeling the need to judge its worth on how close it plays to a game that’s 15 years old.
No, you know how to play an older character that happens to BE in ST. You don’t get all the advantages the ST style of play affords to its characters. And that’s kind of a cop out answer anyway.
Again, 3s places the emphasis on different aspects of the fight. There’s still pressure and I’d even argue MORE character interaction because you have to get so close to be effective. It’s a different game that has elements of previous SF games in it. If it played the same as the old games, then what point would there be in even making it in the first place?
Um, yeah. But I don’t see this “SF1 was all specials” thing you’re talking about though.
Anyway, we could go back and forth like this forever. You can have the last word on this one, I’m out. Cheers!
No, but the point is the mechanics you mention do not make something SF.
You see how KOF has the same mechanics, but it isn’t SF. Just as 3s has those mechanics, but it isn’t…
No offense, but I don’t think you’re very good at 3s if you feel that way. Or maybe you weren’t very good at previous SF’s?
Regardless reading your opponent is no more important in 3s than any other Street Fighter. Parries do not require a read, they require instinct and repetition. You parry in situations where you need to protect yourself from counter attack (ie-whiff throw down parry) or in places that somebody is most likely to attack you. While a successful parry may look like a “read” when watching it, you never get to see how many option parries aren’t successful, and therefore it just appears as though there is more “read” in this game than others.
I’m speaking of the game from a competitive standpoint. And in that regard one must be competent at parrying, making jumps safer in 3s than any other SF.
But still can’t zone very well.
Range is meaningless if you still need to get in close to be effective.
It’s not that they don’t serve a similar purpose, it’s that they are rendered useless due to how little effect they have on timing and that they are so easy to avoid.
No, because they aren’t mindlessly easy to avoid in KOF.
As opposed to jumping in a guy’s face and they still can’t punish in 3s?
The parry window is very large. Plus you can block immediately after a parry. There is no real risk involved in parries on alot of attacks in 3s.
You just need to be competent. I’m not talking about casual 3s, I’m talking about competitive 3s.
Except it’s not. Less speed, damage and more recovery is not an opinion. It’s measurable and quantifiable.
Yeah, because fireball/dragon zoning had more to do with alpha than ST. 
Yes you do. The older character is still in ST.
You don’t need those “advantages”. Just look at O. Sagat or O. Hawk.
An answer that proves you wrong is a “cop out”? Sounds to me like your opinion of the answer is the real “cop out” here.
I don’t disagree. I’m just saying it doesn’t have the historical primary SF elements in it.
Uh, fireballs were like 40% damage. Dragons and tatsus potentially 100%. If you weren’t doing specials you weren’t ending the game.
The cast owns.
VERY original, and VERY memorable. My friends don’t play 3rd Strike at all, but once they’ve seen him just once or twice in a game, they remember it forever. Its just an example.
The cast is lovely. I can’t stand the SF2 cast, actually.
3s:Great game, Bad Balance?
Oh man… please don’t get me started 
Fantastic friggin’ cast. My favorite SF characters out of the entire series. Inspired, to say the least. Capcom gets props just for being bold enough to release a game with charas looking like they did. Necro hitting that high note when he wins? Come on! Genius, IMO.
I never played enough 3s competitively to really break it down some folks have, but I do know that it didn’t catch on in my circles right away. I think it changed things enough to freak some hardcore SF folks out.
But like SFJake said—VERY memorable. I still have my Japanese copy of “All About SFIII” sitting on my shelf. Got that bad boy in 1995 and it still holds up. I pray to God they leak some SFIII characters into SFIV…so I can finally give that game a try
I personally like the 3s cast a LOT more than SF2’s cast. I will say that Fei Long and DeeJay made the old cast cooler, but man, some of those characters in SF2 really really suck. E.Honda? Really? How shitty. Guile is the coolest character ever made, but beyond that they’re uninspired.
3s has its share of WTF characters, but not nearly as many if you ask me. I know this sounds gay, but I far enjoy chunli in 3s than SF2. Almost as if she’s a different character in that game.
I hate Blanka. Any SF game without him is a winner IMO.
SF2 cast>SF3