ok, sorry. Misunderstood you.
can anyone help me with this ?
This post answers some of your questions: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=2939098&postcount=32
Abuot whehter red parrying gives more frame+ than regular parrying the whole thing, my guess is “no” but I don’t have any proof for that. And as for fireballs, parrying one does not affect the character that threw it.
Read at http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/capcom_vs_snk_2_frame.txt
Frame disadvantage is, you guessed it, how many frames you recover AFTER your
opponent after making them block a move. A small frame disadvantage simply
gives your opponent initiative on the next move. A large enough frame
disadvantage makes the move unsafe. How large the frame disadvantage needs to
be to make the move unsafe varies from game to game. In CvS2, moves that give
-3 are usually punishable by jabs and certain uppercuts if the opponent is
close enough. In 3S, a meager -2 is enough for Ken to super you, -3 is enough
for Chun Li to super you. Namco games usually need around -9~11 to make a move
unsafe, and so on.
So i guess only one frame advantage doesn’t give enough margin to punish…
Another example: Q Dashing Head Attack (LP or MP) is -2 BlockedAdvantage but cannot be punish by ken’s Shippu, even reversal…(not sure for HP one which have -3)
I have no idea concerning the difference between Ryu/Akuma but range difference sounds right to me…
edit: hum, my example with Q only works with LP…MP or HP is punishable with Shippu, reversal or not…
the article got it wrong. Ken’s SAIII has a 2 frames startup (that’s the correct data), and that means that it hits on the 3rd frame. Chun’s SA2 has a 3 frame startup. So at least -3 is needed for shippu punishing, and -4 for chun (and take into account that Chun takes 2 extra frame of blockstun when crouching, so she can punish crouching moves that put the opponent at -6 ormore on other characters.)
This is the standard notation for 3s frame data: startup frames are all the frames before a move can hit.
So if a move has n startup frames, it starts hitting on the (n+1)th frame.
About Ryu/Gouki, it’s just that Gouki’s SA1 is wider as it comes out, so it reaches a certain distance instantly on startup while Ryu’s has to travel a bit before getting to that point. (but Ryu’s travels faster, so at a distance it can be better)
Also, Ryu has the same crouching block added blockstun as Chun, so you have to take this into account when it’s used to punish
Meh…gamefaqs? 
Ok man i think the list is very inaccurate right now cuz i tested more stuff and it never match to the data, i think we need the japanese chart to get the real data for each characters. Too bad nobody ever translated it, i would like to know the correct stuff very much. :china:
Yeah about ryu/gouki stuff it’s my same conclusion, dunno if it’s the correct one but it make sense to me too.
So the real hitting frame is startup speed+1, mmmh this is good to know!
thanks for the replies, now conclusions.
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fireballs are not connected with the user at all.
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red parries do not add more recovery frames than blue parrying does
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still no answer on whether parrying IN GENERAL adds recovery frames to the OPPONENT or if there is a difference in parrying weak and hard variations, or a character that is atking in the air or on the ground.
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still no answer on whether or not the action of parrying itself has recovery frames, and if so, how many frames are there to a successful parry.
I understand the mechanics of frames, so this is not the question I’m asking. What I’m asking are frame related questions in reguards to parries specifically, and the ins and outs. Thanks again, u guys are awesome.
parrying is just an animation that cancels into EVERYTHING, its “recovery” frames are as many as you want it to be before you do something.
According to Jinrai:
*Blue ground parry windows for ground moves/fireballs: 10 blue, 6 sloppy.
Blue ground parry windows for air moves: 5 blue, 5 sloppy. (Interesting.)
Air parry windows for all moves: 7 blue, 6 sloppy.
Red parry windows for all moves: 3 for normal moves, 2 for specials/supers.
Frame advantage for parried Jabs/Shorts: +4 (opponent is frozen for 20 frames)
Frame advantage for parried Strongs/Forwards: +3
Frame advantage for parried Fierces/Roundhouses: +2
Frame advantage for non-projectile specials/supers: 0
Frame advantage for projectiles: -16*
I don’t fully understand it though. The way he described it, when you parry a c.LK you combine 10+6, meaning you’re in parry-stun for 16 frames. Add 4 to that (due to the advantage), and it means the other character (who did the move) is frozen for 20. But aside from the +4, I don’t really see how the person who did the c.LK is stuck for 20 frames. If you can cancel your own parry-stun, wouldn’t that mean you gain the full +20? Why would the parry window (the first 16 frames) affect the character who did the move?
Damn, looks like I’ve created more questions than I’ve answered.
where are you getting this 6/10 for? active frames of the c.LK? maybe there is a “recovery” then, but i think both characters are stunned during the “recovery” of the parry, which really doesn’t make it a recovery.
Based on the description, I’m guessing it works something like this:
On parry, the parried object (may also be a projectile) and parrying player both enter parry freeze for 16 frames, and the parried object is potentially frozen for up to 4 bonus frames.
In addition, the opponent/projectile will continue as if it’s been blocked (I think).
Against projectiles, the projectile is frozen, but the opponent is not, so the -16 frame disadvantage reflects the opponent’s freedom to act during your parry freeze. (Although, this seems questionable vis-a-vis multi-projectile supers.)
So, for example, let’s say you parry Alex’s crouching short. It has 8 frames of recovery, and you get +4 parry freeze advantage for a net of +12 frames. Against Chun Li it’s only +10 fames since the recovery is only 6 frames recovery in addition to the 4 frames of parry freeze advantage.
I expect that the opponent cannot super/special cancel during the parry-freeze - so executing a move that comes out in 4 frames or less (like the universal throw) after parrying a short should be guaranteed.
as Leva pointed me out yesterday on MSN, there are still some weird things about the game (or either a 100% correct framelist does NOT exist, even if the japanese one - game restaurant - is definitely the most accurate one.
Every framelist points ken’s cMK frame advantage the same as Ryu and Gouki (that is, -3 on block, -2 on hit, -1 on crouching hit)
but testing evidence points differently. How? It’s simple: reversal shippu (2 frame startup, hits on 3rd) can actually punish a CONNECTED Ken cMK (on another standing Ken). standing hit Ryu/Gouki’s cMK cannot. Also, blocked Ken’s cMK (upclose) can be punished by reversal Gouki SA1, that by evidence has, then, a 3-frame startup (hits on the 4th). Can’t happen vs Ryu/Gouki.
So, at this point, one would guess that Ken’s cMK is actually -4 on block and -3 on hit, while Ryu/Gouki confirm their -3/-2 (still no evidence about crouching hit)
Now, with dudley things get even messier. Corscrew Blow startup is listed as 1, hitting on the 2nd hit. That would mean that it can punish Ryu/Gouki standing hit cMk too, but guess what? it doesn’t.
At this point one would guess that it’s startup is actually 2 (hitting on 3rd frame) but that, doesn’t make sense for his links to work, since stuff like sMK and f+HK on crouchers give a +2 advantage (if THAT data is correct).
Things get even more messier after that: Dudley’s SA2 punishes ken’s standing hit cMK, and that would put it at a 2 frames startup, hitting on 3rd (which is what the game restaurant frame data say), but it can’t link from stMK, or f+HK like SAIII.
At this point I concluded that Dudley’s SA3 is actually a 2nd frame hitter, but that Dudley takes 1 frame of extra blockstun/hitstun when picking SAIII, since those link work but vs shotos it can punish the same stuff as shippu (AND NOT MORE THAN THAT!!!)
But then, reversal corckscrew punishes blocked Chun’s cMK while shippu can’t. I don’t really get this. Pushback should not be a factor. Also, Kikoshou seems to be even faster than corckscrew (though they are listed to have the same speed) sinceit punishes even a croucing hitting Ken’s cMk (but again, not Ryu/Gouki’s).
After all of that, the only thing I concluded is that Ken’s cMK is -4/-3/-2 while Ryu/Gouki’s are -3/-2/-1
In the end, either it’s the PS2 conversion that’s busted, or there are many unknown factors that alter those should be “set in stone” frame data.
i’m really getting a headache out of this :sad: :sad:
It’s entirely plausible that the game timing is not actually aligned on frame timing which could lead to inconsistencies. (Although it’s very unlikely, the game could conceivably have more granular time than the PS2 controller polling loop.)
Yeah, I’ve noticed some oddities like that as well. I’m still not sure you receive a block penalty for crouch blocking.
When testing with Ibuki blocked standing MK xx qcf+LK against Chun and an opponent Ibuki, I was able to determine that it’s -6 on block. However, it’s also -6 on crouch block for both characters, which would suggest there’s no additional blockstun added for crouch blocking.
I tested this again with her target combo (LP-MP-HP) canceled into qcf+LK and I was able to determine that it was -4 on stand block. But again when testing it against large crouching characters like Hugo, Dudley, and Urien it was still -4 on crouch block.
so 3s is a random game.
Out of curiosity, since you’re in Italy, are you playing 3s on a PAL set?
(PAL is 50hz rather than 60hz - so there may be some weirdness.)
of course not.
Pal broadcasting standard is 50hz, but PAL tv’s started supporting 60hz scan like in the '80s (the “pal 60” standard). So while the “standard” is still 50 for compatibility issues, as of 2007 i believe at least 99% of the installed tv sets here support 60hz. Europe is not that behind in technology as some people believe :lol:
And besides that, I’m playing Japanese 3s on a Japanese ps2 which supports only 60hz.
Chun SA1 and Mak SA1 both can punish a crouched hitting ken cMK with reversal timing where Dud SA1/SA3 cannot, still no explanation to this cuz all the above SAs can punish a blocked chun cMK where Shyppu can’t. So if Shyppu hits on the 3rd frame and Dud SA1/SA3 both hits on the 2nd frame, proved by the tests this means Chun SA1 and Mak SA1 are in some way ‘faster’, this is also proved framewise. Mh…this shit too weird :looney:
since these moves are tagging crouching moves, shouldnt there be frames of recovery upward? for example, when you do a c.MK with ken, his hitbox changes from crouching mk(to a smaller hitbox) into crouching animation, and corksrcrew doesnt tag the hitbox until ken hits a certain position (“4th” frame of c.MK recovery ie hes in the default crouching position and is capable of blocking).
the sa2 examle: since it’s a “rush” super, remember that your opponent has to stick out a limb with a hittable box, and at -3, dudley immediately tags the foot which is retracting, while on the otherhand, when hitting with a fHK, dudley has to rush forward to a regular crouching hitbox NOT right next to him, the difference between the retracting limb and the body could be your mysterious one frame of confusion.
in essence, frame data is correct, but frame data isnt 100% right in every circumstance, hitboxes have to collide too, and hitboxes can and will change from frame to frame.