yeap i didnt like this version of gief ether
he may be strong if snake eyez say so
but he doens looks fun at all
~2 is too much of a problem right now. If they made it act like exgh on hit where it pushes them back and is +1 then it would be fine. Gief also needs his lp spd back, it’s his game.
That cr.jab os gh looks so crappy from what I saw yesterday. Basically it looks like WE’RE the ones that have to guess now. Will they jump, backdash, mash dp, block. Can jab spd punish moves like DeeJays ex sobat any more?
Nope, i tested cr lk and st short on ryu as he was standing still and zangiefs ankle went through ryus foot?! But then i tested ryus low forward against his self and it kinda did the same, Cody’s cr lk also.
Snake Eyes is trying to get our character nerfed.
LP. green hand is ludicrous right now. It’s a meter building comboable fireball cancelling command dash.
Nah i’m not trying to get him nerfed. I just outplayed those guys today because I know what they want to do regardless of what character they pick. It’s just the essence of unfamiliarity of lpgh that allowed me to kinda get away with lpgh into spd and other things. They had surveys of thoughts about usf4 at superarcade.
There was a section specific to the character you were playing the most asking what you thought about them. I basically wrote down that Gief needs his lp spd extended a little more than it is now because it can’t punish jaguar kick, sobat kicks, balrogs dash punch (although it’s ~1) or kens step kick (thats +0) unless it’s unrealisticly deep then thats the only time its close enough. Not having the current or close to current lp spd allows these characters to safely chip Zangief without spacing there attacks correctly for free… I also said that his short sweep could use a speedup and/or more range. 3rd thing i wrote was asking for throw invincibilty on ex spd because thats his best attack after lpgh.
I do know for sure that Giefs changes are going to be exgh knocksdown on both hits and lpgh should be getting more frame advantage on hit. I’m not sure about lp spd though.
I don’t understand; you saying they changed the range on cr.LK too?
At first thats what i thought but thats false. From what i tested i’m assuming certain characters hurtbox got pushed backwards where their feet are, as far as I know Gief and Ryu’s and E. Ryu’s hurtboxes where pushed back. Zangiefs st lk got slightly nerfed though, not sure why they did that
Ah ok. The impression I’m getting is that LP GH will open up some new doors. Punishing fireballs and ending combos meterless seems really strong, but I’m not sure yet if it’s worth the hit he took in footsies. st.LK, st.MP, j.FP and LP SPD are very important and they’ve all been nerfed, so I’m worried about how strong Gief will remain once the new gimmicks we figure out get downloaded over time.
that’s my main concern too…
he seems too gimmicky now.I am afraid that we lost some fundamental tools for footsies and solid gameplay and we got gimmicks to replace them.
maybe that will work for the first months of the game but in the long run i dont think that those changes are gonna make gief a better character than he is now
At present I think AE Zangief is much more solid and way more viable.
The buff to EXGH into a hard knockdown instead of a soft knockdown is to compensate for delayed wakeup. Delayed wakeup would make offense a living hell, for EVERYBODY. And I feel they should work to compensate attackers in that area. Because of the huge risk and commitment, offense after a knockdown will be dead. Maybe reduce the reversal window, just to give meaty attacks a chance.
Your only shot is to bait out the delayed wakeup and press. But really in 5 to 10 frames, don’t think any character can MacGyver up anything.
EXGH while dangerous and should be respected, has lost a huge percentage of utility. Maybe 80%, and in a footsie, non-projectile match-up. Your chances of landing ONE, would be slim. Why can’t it be sped up to 14 frames or so, as you can’t combo it anyway.
It will look like ass, in that you score the difficult EXGH “sniper” knockdown. Only to gain very little benefit (except a corner carry with LPGH x 3). In fact, it makes AE EXGH +1 on hit GODLY. Think of it as a reset. You don’t have your already low odds cut in half, by dealing with any “delayed wake-up” nonsense.
The other EX moves seriously need a buff to improve utility. Maybe not EX SPD. Hugo has what looks like a fast running bear grab, which is what Zangief should have had. But I think the ability to cancel EX RBG like Abel’s soul less would be great. So, for the 1 EX bar, you reduce risk, and make it safer. Snake Eyes mentioned EX SPD should be throw invincible, but I say EX AS should be throw invincible and 1 frame startup. At present, I don’t think Zangief will use much EX moves at high level play. Super is a useless gamble but a great punish IF YOU EVER get the chance. That only leaves FADC and Red Focus. I’m not quite sure, what the purpose of red focus is.
If they do improve LPGH to -1 on hit, they should also improve MPGH to -2 on hit. So that Vangief gets a reliable o/s GH - considering the nerf of the st.lk.
The game after LPGH on hit, is rather interesting, and appears unfavourable.
a) If they jump to avoid your throw - you can Ultra 2 or far HK, possibly others. This is guaranteed reaction damage.
b) If they try to reversal to beat your throw - you can EXGH or Block. Note: Shoryuken FADC forward dash = Free Atomic Suplex, but I think back dash is safe even from LPGH.
c) If they throw you, you can do shitty jump back, but you really have to tech, unless you have Ultra 1 or Super. So it doesn’t look good. You can also back dash.
d) If they back dash, you might be able to far cr.hk or maybe even st.hk at that point blank range.
e) If they try to combo with a normal - You can block or invincible throw. But why would they do that? Seems to only be if your prepping U2.
Blocking will probably be the mathematically best outcome - You can punish jump back and neutral jump. Big Z’s back dashes could be eaten alive via aerial anti-air especially after they whiff a fast normal. Invincible throws will lose to back dash, neutral jump and reversal. Zangief will also be at risk to the opponent’s high low mixup via crouching low and instant jump back overheard if the characters have it.
Just what is the opponent’s best option after LPGH? That in itself is a difficult question. I think:
#1: Baiting out the invincible throw reels in the most Russian whale. But at point blank, Zangief might be able to cr.mk cross under neutral jumps for a big score.
#2: Jump back and risk or possibly trade with far HK.
Just who has the advantage after LPGH? Because Zangief appears to be very polarized, to either Bet Nothing (by blocking, preferably low) or Bet Everything (by invincible throw). There’s not much there in the grey area for creativity. Have to see how Itabashi handles the maths.
Here are my thoughts after a brief test, and reading from Snakeeyez.
IMO this is really neccesarry to make this edition of gief just right I hope someone will listen.
Light Flats, Just like they made it now. And -2
Medium Flats, -1 on hit and same range, OR. +1 on Hit, and pushback Like current EX-GH.( I honestly think its fair)
LP SPD 1.65 range, not 1.60. It was 1.65 in super, and 1.75 in AE2012
I dont understand why you would give s.mp a bigger hurtbox. Yeah its GOOD, but its a poke you can only use close, and if gief gets that close. It means that he has Worked for it, its not like somehting you just throw out from far or mid-far range and hope for the best. In HIGH level, it ONLY works where it HAS to work, and if they nerf that I think It will be harder to play Zangief in the long run.
Also I dont think it is FAIR to nerf the range of s.lk I actually find it really destructive vs. A bunch of characters. Fei Long, Ryu to name a couple.
Here’s what I think they’re logic is with Gief. His pokes and normals are too good and jab spd was unfair. Lets nerf all of that and make him into a character that has to take way more risks(guesses). They’re 100% wrong but this is what I think their reasoning is.
Make MP Green Hand be +1 on hit, but mke it push back enough for Fierce SPD not to connect, but for MP SPD to connect.
Buff jab SPD back to Super status.
I don’t know what to do with his EX moves, I like making EX GH = corner and I don’t want to change that, but I don’t know what to do to make EX SPD and EX Suplex better. Something should be done though.
EX SPD just needs to be throw invincible or 2 frames. With delayed wakeup neutering hard KD’s, I don’t think that’s asking too much. Would give him a little presence after a LP GH.
What i like about current Gief is that you get guranteed damage everytime you confirm exgh, only 20 more dmg but it’s more and you get safer positioning/more frame advantage from it, but you need meter. If lpgh was +1 and lp spd was 1.70 Zangief would be perfect in his own way including the 2 hit knockdown on green hand change. Although if exgh was a little faster that would be fine because i think if it’s at 14 frames it still wouldn’t combo from a light attack.
The thing is the exgh in usf4, it makes Sagat vs Gief feel playable. At that USF4 tournament everyone I played chose Sagat except for Chris King (grand finals). Once people start to figure out the timing of Zangiefs new exgh and find body splash setups into cr jab st strong exgh (although thats character specific) he’d be able to lock people down. He just needs a couple of touches away from being good. But hopefully me winning that tournament didn’t mean anything. Oh yeah Vega is kinda hard now since his cr fierce can aa now. Also his cosmic heel is really fast.
Vega’s buffs in Ultra SF4 are AWESOME. He’s going to be a monster. Way overpowered. 5 frame U2, invincible special anti-air. cr.lp 2 frame link hit confirm into EX walldive knockdown. Super hits on the way to the wall, not that was really needed. Just gives a useless move, some use. Now if only they did that to Gief, he’s got a tonne of useless moves.
Oh and congratulations on winning that tournament.
I believe in the current build, many pro Zangief’s would be sitting on spare EX bars, perhaps full meter for quite a while. If your opponent has a projectile, you have some use. Otherwise, using a 16 frame attack to whiff punish, is going to be difficult.16 frames makes it worst than an Ultra, except without the pause. Even though the pay off of landing it, may appear like hitting the jackpot. It’s going to be hard to land, especially in footsies, WITHOUT guessing and going random, I say.
For the times, you guess EXGH to punish back dash. eg after rekka, scissor kick, etc, you could have lost 300+ damage from jump back roundhouse into full combo.
In the current build of Ultra, the only thing that could save EXGH, and make Zangief use EX meter again, would be buffing the attack box vertically, to catch opponent’s landing from their jump backs. With the increased 16 frame startup and 3 frames more of invincibility, one could pass through the opponent’s aerial attack or not, and make them land on it!
It may well be, that this version of Zangief is the “The Dark Knight Rises Sagat Tiger Revenge” edition, especially with that revamped EXGH, but all his other footsie orientated match-ups will suffer. Yup, we now have less ways to get in, way way less. But we can apparently imitate Hugo corner pressure? o/s cr.lk, o/s cr.lp, o/s st.lk, o/s st.lp may no longer be viable. We no longer have the upper hand in terms of finesse, superior poke and counter poke quality, against the opponent’s medium and heavy pokes. We only dish out 30 damage from each light attack to risk trading with 70+ damage pokes. far MK needs to have faster start-up or MPGH needs to be -2 on hit.
And also, matches against other fellow grappliers just got a whole lot worst, as we don’t really have any viable tools. No o/s light attack xx GH. An unreliable -2 on hit LPGH - realistically? We have nothing in these matches. If you didn’t have a reason to use EX meter in other match-ups, you have no reason to use it against grappliers. I think we’re dead this time. Oh well, hopefully things get tweaked in the next location test/build.
Yeah, Gief is alot worse against grapplers now. His lpgh doesn’t whiff after being buffered from max range though. The actual hitbox of gh is bigger. I think i traded with a ega’s jump back rh but i wouldn’t use that as a jump back punish. I’d like to use exgh for that.
I think we’re going to see a lot of Dead Zangiefs, sniping and pulling the trigger with EXGH, and missing. In a footsie match, the move has 16 frames startup, and an opponent’s light attack completes from start to finish in 13 frames. Feint’s will be a huge problem, which will really test your whiff punishing reflexes with EXGH. Unless you can consistently land the 1 frame link combo into EXGH: cr.lp.st.mp / st.mk xx EXGH - But you NEED to get in first.
It would be a dream, if they took Zangief in a different direction. Make him the LIGHTWEIGHT of the HEAVYWEIGHTS. Reduce damage on all his moves across the board. Give him back all his tools, ability to combo EXH and knockdown EXGH like in Super SF4. Ultra 2 from AE, LPGH = -2 on hit, long range LP SPD.
In exchange, reduce his damage output. For example: LP SPD = 140 damage, HP SPD = 160 damage. AS = 150. Mind you, this is only a suggestion. Note: Values are way too low.
So it means that Zangief has to work HARDER, but he’ll be more versatile.
I think its fair, because he is the most worked over character in the entire game. Capcom never really know what to do with him. And in every iteration of this game, he incurs the most changes to his game play.
It might be too late for this, but wow. It would be so cool.
Some one please talk to combofiend and make it possible!!!