Wouldn’t making his green hand -1 or -2 on hit make the T.Hawk match even worse though?
~2 or ~1 on hit means a free raging demon super from any character that has it for your troubles, also T. Hawk and Hakan would be able to ultra 1 for free. Not sure about how fast any other attacks are for other characters but any move that comes out in 2 frames would make giefs footsie game a little funny causing him to have more problems with gh. With the history of Zangiefs nerfing ! any bad changes wouldnt come as a suprise to me.
With regards to the Hawk match-up. Not really, as you couldn’t combo into regular green hand anyway. For that aspect, the match-up isn’t worser off. But if you can’t combo EXGH from the lights, then yes.
But really, think about it, against the rest of the cast, they can’t make it Zero on hit, because of re-looping. But this would definitely be the best case scenario for regular GH.
I think we have to be careful with what we wish for. I don’t think there is ever a need for regular gh to be safe on hit or for it to be a staple combo. I would much rather they went down the path of improving its positioning and projectile banishing value.
I’d rather have Gief remain as a solid character rather than promoting randomness by making most of his tools leave him at 0 or worse. Tbh I dont think +1 on lpgh is too good while not being able to combo exgh from light attacks, lpgh literally whiffs right infront of punished limbs and does less dmg than exgh. Alot of the properties of that are in buffering cr jab exgh dont exist in cr jab lpgh in many different ways
I think it’s a given that if they give us a safe on hit Green Hand we’ll lose the ability to combo into EX Green Hand, there’s pretty much no way we’ll get both. So if we get a GH that is -1 on hit we’ll be able to be punished by Hawk, Hakan, Gief, Ryu, Ibuki’s U1, Chun, Akuma, Oni, Evil Ryu, Balrog’s U2, Guy’s U2 and Honda’s U2, which would make those matchups definetly worse (outside of Gief of course) since we now wouldn’t have a combo ender.
I don’t really think re-looping would be awful for the game, once Gief is in he should be in (like in previous games). Making our only combo ender -1 on hit would be pretty damn awful.
Edit: Also, I think my tone in this post is kind of mean, sorry for that, wasn’t my intention.
No. not at all. Your not mean, maybe there is some miscommunication. Yes, at -1 or -2, many characters can punish you, but guess what? Many characters can’t directly punish you either. It’s a match-up specific tool, much like anything else.
Is anyone going to place bets on whether safe regular greenhand, and light comboable EXGH are mutually exclusive, that is, one without the other? I think it could go either way, with nerfs in other departments.
Is there any mention of hit confirming regular gh? But was it only safer and not intended for combos?
At -2, I can see it safely used to option select pokes, especially with MPGH.
What’s so bad about +1 on hit? If we make a read to get in, why should we not get pressure? Isn’t that the purpose of grapplers?
I think people are so used to Zangief getting the short end of the stick that any hint of something positive implies a host of losses elsewhere.
Run down: Gief has great meaty
mixups but has a very hard time
getting a knock down to start
them. I want to make that a bit
easier while not making him too
good.
–Far standing mk: 14 frame
recovery, -7f on block, -3f on hit
(currently 18 frame recovery, -10f
on block, -7f on hit): it’s
unreasonable that Guile can
punish far st mk on counter hit
with flash kick, don’t want a huge
improvement just want this to be
safe on hit
–Down-toward hk: 19 frame
recovery, -8f on block, profile
lowered (currently 22f recovery, -11f on block, 7 active frames): just
want a tool to better duck under
moves
–Lp green hand: +1f on hit, has
more pushback, does 50 damage
(currently -5f on hit, keeps the
opponent close on hit, does 120
damage): a tool for Gief to combo
into without meter, but to balance
this it leaves the opponent at
something like far st lk range
instead of point blank, does way
less damage, and is still really
unsafe on block
–Mp green hand: +1f on hit, has
more pushback, does 60 damage
(currently -6f on hit, keeps the
opponent close on hit, does 130
damage): a tool for Gief to combo
only close mp/mk into without
meter, but to balance this it leaves
the opponent at something like far
st lk range instead of point blank,
does way less damage, and is still
really unsafe on block
–Ex green hand: knocks down on
hit, 14 frame startup (currently
does not knock down on hit, has
13f startup): 14f startup means it
can’t combo normally from lp/lk,
so this becomes a tool only to be
used in mid range on reaction/prediction or comboed from close
mp/mk, still really unsafe on block. Ultra David posted this in the Zangief suggestions thread like 6 months ago but the i’d like to bring it up is because every rumor i’ve heard about the gh/exgh changes follow up perfectly with this. This just has alot more detail. Capcom listened.
Those MK and HK changes would’ve been nice. Really hope they listened to that part about LP/MP GH being +1 on hit. If it’s 0 or -1, things are gonna be tough for us.
He also posted something about the u2 following a characters jump arc, im not sure what he means but im thinking likehow bisons head stomp in sf2 is always above his opponent no matter how high they jump.
50 and 60 damage, after a hit confirm, would do practically nothing.
But you want the post positioning and YOMI.
And infinite o/s gh.
Nice thinking!
This makes gief rely on grabs more for dmg but i could see gief landing a ex spd from getting in with regular gh to try and setup a vortex.
Now that we can safely end combos w/ reg. GH, EX SPD should be getting a lot more use. Really wish it was 2 frames tho. I hate getting thrown out of it.
At first I had no idea how much slower capcom was thinking about making the exgh but 1 frame seems cool. Not trying to imply what ultra David said are the changes but thats what im going with.
You think red focus and 2 ultras will help geif much? I think red focus will help in the sagat matchup.
2 ultras is kind of a crazy mechanism. Some characters will be practically “untouchable.” But then, that’s only if you have two viable ultras.
But with the reduced damage, that you get from Ultra III - Combined Deluxe It’s not a game changer, when you have Ultra 2 + HP SPD vs Ultra 2 + Ultra 1 (in reduced damage form)
What it also means is, is that the penalty for a missed SPD or AS, just got worst. With two Ultra’s stocked, the opponent’s got more options to punish you, if they hadn’t before. All they need is access to a horizontal moving Ultra.
Plus, the game just got harder, in that match-up knowledge is a little more difficult. In some match-ups, you only see the ONE type of ultra. Now you have to know the startup frames, and ideal punish or counter for both Ultras.
Red focus is interesting. Grapplers can void the armor with their throws.
As for the Zangief vs Sagat match-up, let’s look at it:
Sagat can red focus: EXGH
Zangief can red focus: double hit far HK, High EX Tiger Shot, and Possibly Low EX Tiger Shot (though not sure on how reliable it is), any two hit cancel into regular tiger, eg. cr.mk xx low tiger shot. So there definately is some potential. But if you can’t charge it fast enough to Level 2 for the crumple, and land it guaranteed, then its not a game changer I believe.
I think these changes are pointless and stupid quite frankly. They’re gonna completely butcher a game that was already fairly balanced with these scrub friendly changes imo but whatever. The real funny part is reading all the posts about how Gief will now be unstoppable and op. These fools just never learn apparently cause they say the same thing with every version of this game. Then of course we all know where he ends up.
I feel like Gief is a solid character atm and I really don’t see why they are changing him. He’s pretty similar to his ST version (bar sweep etc). W/e though I’ll always play him, at least I’l be able to sometimes not lose to Sagat with Greenhand KD and I’ll have two Ultras to guess with.
Zangief’s Ultra 1 doesn’t open up many new opportunities, though, does it? Siberian Blizzard makes jumping and certain moves very dangerous for the opponent. If you’re trading off damage to have both ultras, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t just take Siberian Blizzard; your throws are always a threat, anyway.