^^
okay that would be boring as fuck to get hit by that.
I’ve seen alot of talk about TOD combos giving the opponent a ton of meter.
That only works if they are alive LOL, can’t use meter when you already lost.
@Y2ryoko with the godlike post.
If people are really going to judge how this game is played because of one guy doing heck-of-a-long combos… well it’s not that different from guys not liking the game because of the art style or “cuz der r 0nly gurlz”. They don’t really seem to have attention span long enough to see the whole game for themselves. 
Take me for example: when I first heard of Skullgirls as a potential good substitute for UMvC3 on PC, first thing I did was checking the game’s website to see what it is exactly. I must say the character graphics that are displayed there were (and pretty much still are) HORRENDOUS to my taste (Those hips! Kill them with fire!) and that means a lot for someone like me, a person who mostly chooses a first character based on cool looks or impresive gameplay trailer and sticks to her no matter what (oh those painfull days learing Vega in SF4 cause he’s pretty). However I didn’t let that get me and I began to check gameplays, trailers, ANYTHING that could maybe redeem the game in some way.
Imagine my surprise when I began learning about things like choosing your own team size, IPS (quite an ingenius idea IMO), custom assists (even more ingenius), actual tutorials, GGPO, potential cross-platform between PC and PS3 or even small things like Valentines orange poison causing input lag. This game just seemed to have EVERYTHING to make it perfect.
Even more surprising was seeing the game in motion. This particular art-style looks a LOT better in movement and I could see all those little details (I like little details) and the smoothness of movement. Simply put in a span of 2 days the game went for me from “Ugh it’s ugly” to the most anticipated game ever. Watching gameplays to this day is good for reigniting the fire of me wanting this game. When it comes out on PC I’m buying it, persuading all my friends in FGC to buy it (a hammer might or might not be involved) and buying EACH and EVERY DLC to the boot, cause I want it to stay alive as long as it’s possible.
Ugh went off track there a little… Anyway my point is people don’t seem to research this game at all after their first impression both back then (it’s ugly) and now (40 second combos). It certainly saddens me.
As for my opinion about long combos themselves… I love doing them and I certainly don’t mind being caught in them if that’s not what happens all the time (which I believe is the case in Skullgirls). If my opponent does a creative 5 meter, 150-hit, 40 second combo, then that will be only leaving me giving him the best applause I can, cause he deserves it. Actually that Pali vs Mike-Z vid left my laughing at how long it went and how 3 times I was sure it was over. So applause to you dear sir Pali, for that truly entertained me.
Or alternatively, they do research the game and they just have a different set of criteria for judging whether a game is worth playing. It’s no less valid for someone to say that the netcode is great and some of the gameplay elements are nice but no lobbies, no male characters and long combos are a deal-breaker.
Unfortunately, as far as I wish for it to be true, my experience with internet and FGC shows that it is a great minority of people that does that. 
More than once I saw posts like “It has only girls it must be like those crappy doujinshi fighters”. And as I said there is only that one video showing long combos in the game with patch. If people decide based on that, that the game has long combos and that is a deal-breaker then they probably didn’t check the rest of the fights. Or they have selective memory. Of course no hard feelings for people who actually checked the game and/or the demo and didn’t like it overall.
The thing is, if long TOD combos exist and can be executed reliably (which they clearly can, since Pali did that in a competitive match, online even), it’s better to use them than not. And if the game isn’t intended to evolve into first-hit-wins TOD combos in the long term, the fact that they exist is problematic.
There isn’t a question there, it’s just plain game theory. (In the economics sense, not the theory-fighter sense.)
Your argument is fundamentally flawed. First, you’re saying that long ToD combos in Skullgirls can be executed reliably because you witnessed one person perform them online. I don’t understand how you came to that conclusion. Pali clearly isn’t your average player and Skullgirls has the best netcode of practically any non-Arcsys fighting game on the market. You’re basically undermining Pali’s skills by saying “Oh, they were able to do that complicated-looking combo online. It must be so easy anyone can and will be doing it.” Now let me refer you to the following videos:
[media=youtube]aF6Mv8J5-yo[/media]
[media=youtube]s8h8gNmtpiE[/media]
Say what you want about Marvel 3, but I don’t think you’re going to find anyone complaining that SSFIV had combos that were too long and could also be “executed reliably online”. Most people think MvC3’s netcode was complete garbage, and while SSFIV’s was/is better, it’s certainly not GGPO.
Also, no one ever said that Skullgirls, nor the patch, was designed to make ToDs impossible. That in itself is impossible because of the ratio system. It’s not hard for solo Fillia to kill a full team or duo’s character. Mike has said, repeatedly, that he’s perfectly fine with 100% combos, just not braindead 100% combos based on loops and scumbag tech. This was also showcased perfectly in Pali’s combo.
As for it always being better to use ToDs (if the player’s skill allows), that’s debatable as well. As I said before, I think the resource management in Skullgirls is extremely important. If I’m fighting a team that consists of an anchor Valentine, I don’t know if I want to give them full meter just to kill one character as stylishly as possible (unless it’s a character I’m particularly afraid of). The game is full of characters that are extremely good at making comebacks with meter, even if they lose a character to gain it.
It’s almost as if it was… designed that way…?
TOD =/= first hit wins
TODs were always OK with Mike. It’s meterless or meter-positive TODs he had an issue with.
That is, unless you were a solo against a team of three, in which case that’s just a downside of using a team of three.
Lmao completely undermining my skill, not everyone hits those combos. I’m not saying Skullgirls is very high execution because it’s not IMO, but that could be just because i have good execution.
I did that combo without even practicing it in training mode, not to toot my horn but id like to see you or anyone do it in a match vs someone good. It’s not as easy as it looks. Also skullgirls netcode is one of the best i’ve ever seen, you SHOULD be able to hit your shit.
OK tonight I will continue the tutorial sessions on stream. I hope to cover the training mode options, the IPS and a few peculiarities of the SG engine. I may be able to cover more (properly pushblocking, PBGC, absolute guard), so your presence would be appreciated if you would like to add something or clarify anything.
The stream will be live at 8pm EST/5pm PST tonight, here: http://www.twitch.tv/guitalex
I will permanently archive the video for future reference.
Dunno about that particular combo you did (the Parasoul and Double parts seemed very doable, but I don’t play PW so I dunno how hard that part was), but I did just just post a video where I strung together three basic BnBs to do a combo that was over a minute long. There was like one tricky link in there. I’ve done it against live opponents already once or twice, but not a lot of times because unless the opponent is playing solo and is still at relatively high health his character will die before the combo finishes.
Val is a pretty bad anchor. Her assists aren’t anything to write home about and she does her best work supported by assists. In fact it’s almost as if she (along with PW) was designed to be a point character. Filia and Double are much more likely candidates, since they have great assists and can make great use of meter.
Is there a consensus on where each character should go? I’m thinking something like this:
Point
- Valentine
- Painwheel
Second
- Bella
- Peacock (also works well on point)
Anchor
- Filia (also works well in second)
- Double
Anywhere
- Parasoul
- Ms. Fortune
[edit] @ukyo_rulz, you did a long basic combo but it took 5 meters and a poison loaded start. I’m not sure why anyone would be bothered by that…
As was mentioned, BBCT has a time-based combo limit - the hitstun decay increases a bit every frame. (BBCP, not yet out on console, apparently also has something to that effect based on your starter.) If you had actually played BBCT, you would know why that is a bad idea.
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My problem with a time-based approach is not that it limits your combo length by time. That’s fine - I personally disagree with it, but it’s fine as an approach.
It’s that things which “can” work, that players will want to use, can be made not to work if you delay by even ONE FRAME anywhere in your combo. AS YOU KNOW as a player, players want to exploit the system to the limit. There’s no way that someone is going to do a 40-hit combo frame-perfect every time, and if that means that the last attack doesn’t work “randomly”, players will get frustrated. You WON’T want to to do a shorter combo, you will just complain that the longer combo you found doesn’t work if you delay for one extra frame somewhere. That isn’t the kind of execution you can practice, and it isn’t comparable at all to regular hitstun decay. It will annoy people enough that they stop playing the game, as happened with BBCT.
As a particular example, in a game with frameskip, combos could be possible or impossible with the same execution depending on when in the frameskip cycle you land your initial hit. This is true whether the timer pays attention to frameskip or not.
A timer is not a bad idea if your only goal is to limit the length of combos, but it’s a VERY bad idea if your goal is to avoid player frustration. (Though IMVHO “limiting the length of combos” is a very shortsighted goal, especially in a heavy-handed manner like a timer, which ignores everything about how attacks and combos work in whatever game.) There are other ways to limit the length of combos - MvC2 has one, GG has another, MvC3 has another, 3s has another, SG has another. Possibly they don’t limit things enough for your liking, like SG may not, or possibly they have exploits to get around the limit like MvC3, but they are all less frustrating than a timer, to me.
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I see a timer, ANY timer, the same way that the creator of Katamari Damacy said that he did - it’s a terrible kludge to add tension when you can’t figure anything else out. Fighting games have a round timer for that very reason, to add the “I need to hit them NOW or I lose” factor. Skullgirls only has a round timer because it specifically limits the effectiveness of pure runaway.
I don’t think you could hit that exact parasoul combo i did in 1 try, or the Painwheel.
Valentine combos are easy so are filia and everyone else for that matter, it’s the fact of doing it in a high pressure situation. I can hit MarlinPie Doom combos in Mvc3 but if i was in a tournament high stakes match? i’d probably drop that shit.
I’m just saying easy and long combos are not that hard to do. Five meters is a stretch but you can get about 2/3 of that combo on just two meters. As for the poison I do like 80% of my combos from green vial poison. Frankly I don’t see why all Valentine players don’t do the same.
I’m not a Parasoul player so I don’t think I could hit it in one try either. I could probably do it if I played her a lot more but I’m done with her. I started out trying to main Parasoul but I dropped her because I hate playing charge characters. As for the PW combo, if you say it’s hella hard I believe you. I never touched her after beating her story mode and I hate her design so I have no plans of ever playing as her again.
Edit: Just tried out the Parasoul part of that combo and I could do it consistently after some practice. It would have taken longer to learn if I didn’t used to play Parasoul already but probably not that much longer. It’s not an easy combo, but it’s very doable. The PW combo I didn’t even try. I just don’t like the character.
Finally, I really don’t see high-stakes tournament matches as being very relevant. I mean, do high-stakes tournament matches for Skullgirls even exist? If they do, how many people participate? Of the potential market for Skullgirls (or any fighting game), what percentage of those people would ever be concerned about how they’re going to perform on stage at Evo with thousands watching?
Peacock works well anchor too, with all the meter she has for Argus confirms and the amount of time she can waste near the end with it, possibly leading to time outs. And for what it’s worth, Val can bring characters back to life, so that’s something for her on anchor.
Normal throw, command throw, and some of her normals are all good assists for Valentine. She also has the most uses for meter, and lots of it. She has a super for ever level and one of the best level 3’s in the game as well as a level 5 that both deals damage and revives a character. I think it’s pretty clear that she can be an anchor if she wants to. Peacock can go pretty much anywhere. Fillia is a great point character, as is Painwheel, Parasoul, and Fortune. I’d say pretty much all of the cast can go where they want. I personally don’t like Fortune as an anchor, but I’m sure a better Fortune player than I can make it work.
Pali’s hard drive malfunctions.
I just replied inside your quote… Makes it easier for me on this tablet.
I said that i wouldnt respond to anymore timer based discussions and since i like to be taken seriously i wasnt prepared to go into it again especially i didnt think you would comment much less more or less addressing me, and i didnt expect anyone else besides age to come up with actually valid points.
In the end though i reply back here cause i deem it rather rude to NOT reply back to you.
- I agree with everything you say here. Some things only to a certain extent but i can find no critical flaw in your logic… And i AM NOT Just saying that because you are you.
- Yes i posited that certain combos that would seek to REALLY PUSH the timer to its furthest points, would of course “randomly” drop as you very eloquently put it.
The solution is simple though, just dont do combos that are that “optimized”… I ccant do ibukis sako optimized combos… I dont lose sleep over it. To me… And I COULD BE TOTALLY WRONG HERE. If someone were to do a near fully optimized or completely optimized combo in a timer based system… Then to me it would be just as celebratable as a sako multi 1 frame link combo… Harder perhaps, but the choice is always there to just not do it. Same as the choice to not do rogs long ass sf4 loops is always there even though many players are able to do them.
But i digress, as you said, people will get mad… And cause of that it is perhaps not the best idea… Remember one thing here though… One mans shit is another mans broken toilet in need of repair… Er… Some folks may hate it… But some may thrive in it… Like plumbers that can make money off of broken toilets… For a stretch…
- I thought the idea was to shorten combos… I didnt know that there were other considerations. Since there are… Yeah timer = bad idea.
- Though no one may believe me, i actually dont mind long ass combos. What i minded mostly was 1 restand… I really disliked that idea and still do… I more than dislike the idea if anyone gets my drift.
Thats how the timer idea was born… As a different way to effectually shorten a combo that doesnt actually nerf current skullgirls playstyles… Unlike what a 1 restand limit does. And yes i admit the idea is obvious and very heavy handed. But i would personally have rathered that than 1 restand.
And thats all i really have to say… You make great points as usual mike and im glad someone argued against me in an efficient and effectual manner… Surprised, but very happy.