Zenpou Tenshin: Mix-ups from cancelled blockstring?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
1

Preface:
Yang’s command grab has the ability to be set up somewhat like a, “tick throw,” and reliably be used to reset damage scaling after a focus attack or a dizzy. Fei, on the other hand, can directly special cancel his normals into his command throw and provide a small gap (usually 3f or 4f). However, unlike Fei, Yang’s normals have ridiculous amount of hit stun which allow him to leave only a frame or two of “free frames” for his opponents to escape.

The Frame Data of Zenpou Tenshin:
[LIST]
[]Normal command grab has a range of 1 (typical of a normal throw); EX command grab has a range of 1.2 (like Zangief’s Super).
[]Normal command grab has a startup of 10f, EX has a startup of 7f
[]Both command grabs have 2 active frames.
[]Both command grabs leave you at +7f. The best follow-up for either throw is probably cl.hp (6f start-up) xx hp rekkas.
[/LIST]

Why Yang’s Command Throw Could See More Use Than Fei Long’s:
Don’t get me wrong; both characters are really dependent on staying close range for their pressure. However, the range on Fei’s Tenshin is 0.85; two attacks typically pushes a character too far away to be hit. Because Yang has an increased range (and decreased start-up time), Yang is able to use the insane amount of frame advantage off of his normals to provide a solid mix-up.

Why Yang’s Normals Lack in This Respect:
Fei’s jabs, on block, provide 10f of blockstun and 13f of hitstun. Without FADCing, the highest frame advantage Yang has (on block) is 4f. On hit, though, Yang has enough frame advantage to provide a decent gap (s.lp (blocked), ex command grab has a 3 frame gap).

The Purpose of this Thread:
There’s probably potential here. Off of a focus attack or a dizzy, it seems relatively simple to ease a command throw into a block string and completely reset the damage scaling. A good example of this would be FA 3, s.lp (don’t special cancel) command grab, cl.hp xx hp rekkas. So just brainstorm and throw out some ideas; there’s probably some decent set ups off of FADCs, but it’s probably not worth the meter.

Zenpou Tenshin Set-Ups:
Note: In this thread, using x represents not special canceling; xx refers to special canceling.
On Hit:
-c.lp x ex tenshin (1f gap)
-s.lp x tenshin (2f gap)

On Block:
-s.lp x ex tenshin (3f gap)

2

It’s a great idea and deserves to be fleshed out more thoroughly.

Here’s something m16ghost contributed in another thread: “Opponents are throw invincible for 2-frames after leaving hitstun/blockstun, so you can’t do meaty setups with 1-frame gaps. The throw will whiff.”

So this makes 3 frame gaps ideal? (please correct me if I’m misunderstanding and it’s actually 2 frame gaps)

With this in mind, here’s the hit/block frames for Yang’s relevant normals:

st.LP = +4 on block & +8 on hit
cr.LP = +3 on block & +6 on hit
st.LK = +1 on block & +4 on hit
cr.LK = +1 on block & +4 on hit

And as Dustlooper already mentioned, the startup frames on ComGrab and EXgrab are 10 and 7 frames respectively.

So ideal setups on block don’t change, because even the highest frame advantage normal (st.LP) and the faster EXgrab leave a 3 frame gap.

Where this info matters is on hit for resets. So some of these setups would be:
-cr.LP > ComGrab (4f gap)
-st.LK > EX Grab (3f gap)
-cr.LK > EX Grab (3f gap)

3

cl.st.mp is +4 on block, +6 on hit. If you did an EX grab off of that, you’d have a 3f gap if you were blocked, or a 1f gap if you hit. For regular grab, you’ve a 4f gap on hit. Probably a relevant normal.

No data on jump ins just yet. However, you probably could go into a tick command grab after a blocked jump-in. Would probably give a nice, extra dimension to Yang’s mix-up off of j.mk (cross-up) and dive-kick (non-cross-up).

4

Edit: in dire need of sleep

5

According to the Frame Data, you can do :

Tenshin > U2
Tenshin > ST.LP > U1 / U2

6

From what I can tell, you can’t get U2 from command grab or linking from jab. Only way is either fadc is launch -> U2

7

Yeah, I tried, I could not get the U2 to connect from Tenshin, but still as Boxer can Jab To Ultra so does Ken. Yang might be able to.

8

Yeah, Yang can connect ultra from a standing jab. Link’s tight, though.

9

Ok just to lay this to rest: Yang can connect U1 from stand jab because stand is +8 on hit. U1 is 8 frames. That means it’s a 1-frame link. It’s entirely possible, I’ve done it before.

U2 is VARIABLE. 4~32 frames. 4 frames from point blank range, and it increases the further you are. So no, as far as I can tell, you can’t get command grab -> s.jab -> U2.

A point blank s.jab -> U2 is -possible-, but unlikely.

10

As stupid as I probably sound, it’s probably better just to FADC into ultra. I understand that it takes two bars, but the ease of FADCing it bests any slight damage increase linking an ultra from a jab would have.

11

noob question but after the command throw can you Plink the normal you use after? i remember reading you couldnt Plink specials but what about a move after a special?

also is there a difference between light medium and heavy command grabs?

thanks in advance

12

Yes. After the command throw, you can plink whatever normal you want. You cannot plink specials, and there typically is no reason to (because you simply special cancel out of normals). Well, maybe some Yun players would like to plink their specials…

There are no differences between light, medium, and heavy command grabs. However, there is a difference between EX and normal command grabs.

13

Is it me or when trying to do zenpou to st.mk, the timing is different for each strength used for the zenpou? I’m never used yang in 3s so I don’t know if it is the same timing in that game also. I’m guessing plinking is the way to get the st.mk to link then do whatever to end it?

14

it’s just you :slight_smile: Command grabs are either the one normal version, or the ex version.
I don’t know why you’d wanna go command grab to MK. I don’t think the command grab is really a viable Ultra setup, bc 2nd rekka is pretty easy to hit confirm. Unless you’re going MK --> U2.
That link is pretty tight. Better off going w/ something easier that will have bigger damage payoffs in the long run.

15

Using command grab, cl.mk is a one frame link (as is cl.hp, iirc).

You can cl.mk, U1 easily. You can cl.mk, JC, mk dive kick whiff, U1 or just cl.mk, dash, U1. It’s easy enough.

Why would you want to cl.mk after a command grab? Movement towards the corner. Command grab, cl.mk, divekick whiff, cl.mk, MK/HK roll kick moves characters further across the stage that just s.hp xx hp rekka, hp rekka, hp/lp rekka; it also gives you that nice roll kick knockdown. In addition, it does similar damage to s.hp xx rekkas. So, if you’re interested in keeping your opponent in the corner, that’s a reasonable way to do it.

Relevant follow ups to command throw:
cl.mp, cr.mk xx special (strongest non-FADC option; one frame link that’s character specific)
cl.hp xx special (easier than cl.mp, cr.mk (to me, at least) and is a universal option)
cl.mk, follow up (prior reasons)
st.lp, ultra (either)
U2 (should be possible)

For lulz, try command grab, s.lk, ex command grab, cl.mp, cr.mk xx rekkas in the corner.

16

Yeah I’ve been fooling around with zenpou. I meant to say that the different strength of each zenpou is faster which is obvious. Shows what happens when I’ve never played Yang ever even in 3s. The cl.mk I feel is the more favorable option after with ultra but the cl.mp is definitely good to set up. I guess I just have to fool around some more and see what is good.

Thanks again Dustlooper

17

I’ve been having a really hard time connecting a hp into slashes after a successful tenshin. I can do a plink by itself after the tenshin, but I can’t do it into the slashes. I always press the hp and mp at the same time. Should I just grind it out more and keep practicing?

18

I was doing rekka X2 FADC command grab since AE came out (on console) and that works well but might not be worth the meter. I still do it though. People who catch on to it try and neutral jump so you can adjust it to rekka X2 FADC neutral j.hk.

I recently switched to Makoto for a while but I’m back to Yang now and all that Makoto experience got me A LOT better at getting command grabs with Yang (and other characters) because it’s a big focus point of Makotos game. I too had no idea about how I could land that command grab in outside of FADC, but playing a grapple heavy character has forced me to get creative. I’m not sure what the frames are like for these but they have worked for me multiple times.

  1. j.lp, command grab- Most people will be defensive and low block after the j.lp whether it hits or not.
  2. overhead kick, command grab- You can’t combo off his overhead anyway so why not go for it. Getting hit with that usually screws people up a bit but causes them focus on blocking a little more which leaves them vulnerable
  3. c.lp, walk forward, c.lp, walk forward, command grab- If you have already downloaded your opponents play style and it’s defensive/ not button mashy, then this works

I thought a fancy frame set up was needed to land Yangs command grab, but after play Makoto a bunch, I’ve learned to focus on my opponents play style and land command grabs in unpredictable situations. You primarily be looking for that moment when you opponent is playing too defensively and blocking all of your attacks.

19

Yeah, I use that a lot as well. One thing that tends to work is to use that once or twice to train the opponent into expecting the command grab, but the next time you do it, use a c.lk string. This blows up people who try to jump away and most backdashes. If you are facing somebody with a good backdash you can OS the c.lk with rekkas. It seems like a true 50/50 set up after the fadc.