I noticed some Cammys love doing the focus, dash back then cannon drill. I think I even read about the tactice over in the Cammy thread about baiting with the focus and dashing back. Once you get used to it, they’ll either let go of the focus or even dash forward to surprise you.
^Yep, JChensor got me with that a few times.
I played Sabin’s Dhalsim 3 times again tonight and went 0-3. The matches weren’t particularly close, either. I lost for the same reasons as above: I failed to capitalize when I got in, I didn’t guess right on the wheel of options enough, and my spacing wasn’t as good.
In other news, I’ve been doing better against high quality name brand Ryus and Dictator’s lately, so I’m putting Ryu at 5-5 and Dictator 6-4 for now. I think the Bison number might be temporary. I’ve had problems with some Dictators in the past and the Bisons I’m currently fighting have identified a couple things to make the matchup better. I feel good about the Ryu number, but iirc I saw a matchup list Daigo made that has it at 4-6 in Ryu’s favor, so I’ll keep that possibility in mind.
Alright, so I tried it out again last night. I was able to get the ultra and super to hit no problem. But I still couldn’t get atomic suplex to hit. Hmmm. You definitely have to get it out on the first frame though.
Ud, you made me feel better aboutt a comment I made in Seth fight.
Long time ago I said “just eat the ultra”. It sounds stupid but just like you said, you take extra damage trying to get around something that its ‘almost’ garunteed he will eventually land. so just go about your business and if he lands, shrug it off, Ryu has more damaging combos that don’t invovle a special move. Hell if you can get hit by the boom into Ultra setup the dmg redux makes it weak sauce dmg.
I need a ton mroe fights in the dhalsim match-up. I’ve actually picked up sim even more and more serious (I just like characters who have simple execution save a bnb combo or so, and win via gameplan more than combo memorization…hence Honda and Vega as well), but its still a nightmare for me…correction…the good Dhalsim’s are a tough fight for me, and akin to the Seth fight I feel as though I have to just ‘take risk’ verse having a real solid gameplan.
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great write up david.
what did sanchez and andy say regarding the match up?
I’ve been entirely wrong about neutral throw by the way. I used to only press jab+short to tech throws, to buffer 720, to get super easy punishment damage and positioning if I didn’t feel like circling around the stick, or in the corner so I didn’t take too much risk getting bopped. I’ve always known that neutral throw leads to amazing mixups, but I always went with 360k to get those mixups instead. But that’s wrong. Neutral throw is sick.
The reason is how fast it recovers. I had some inklings of it a little while ago, but it became pressing this week playing against Sabin’s Seth. Seth’s jump is retardedly fast; he can jump out of a command grab attempt and then he has aaaany option he wants, whether a jump in combo, an ultra, a super, or whatever. Even if his jump escape is a back jump, he can still punish me. But if I do a neutral throw, I’m safe! I can block his jump attack and anything else because the recovery for neutral throw is less than half that of the command grabs. The post-neutral grab mixups are amazing and they come without the kind of risk that comes with 360k.
Is neutral throw the only answer? Of course not. To be a complete Gief player, you need to understand when to go with his different throws. When to use them imo:
Spd: Only when there’s any question of range involved. The post-regular spd options are worse in every way from those of 360k and neutral throw, but the move still comes out in 2 frames and has good range. Play to its strengths.
360k: Mostly in punishment situations with the occasional use in mixups if you really need the damage. The ex 360k is Gief’s most damaging 1-2 frame punisher and both versions of the move do great damage and set up some of the best mixups in SF4, and regular 360k is one of the best meter builders in the game. I’m still gonna use close 360k in mixups sometimes especially when I need that extra damage, but it’s really pretty unsafe. Despite my best efforts to try to time my 360ks, sometimes if the opponent backdashes, jumps, or teleports away, I’ll get running bear grab and run right into whatever my opponent’s strongest punishment is. That’s a really unfortunate risk. It’s a necessary one, however. If I were to depend entirely on neutral throw for my throws, my opponents would eventually realize that they can just start teching me, and that’s not a situation I’m willing to allow.
Neutral throw: In very close mixups and potential throw tech situations. This is where the bulk of my mixups will come in from now on for reasons I already listed. Its fast recovery while still doing good damage and setting up excellent post-grab options makes it a very good option. Again, can’t depend on it too much for fear of the opponent thinking he can just tech against Zangief, but it should be a more than equal partner with 360k in your mixups. Neutral throw has slightly less range than close 360k, but again, if there’s any question of range you should use spd instead.
Let me update that a little bit. If your opponent is one of the characters your meaty option selects are really good on for making them block on wakeup, then I think when you mix it up and go for a grab instead of an option select, you should make that grab a close 360k. There’s little risk of the opponent jumping or reversaling his way out since he knows that your option select forces him to block; the only way he’d try an escape is if he expected a grab instead of an option select, which is possible but unlikely most of the time. Since close 360k is preferable to neutral throw in terms of the actual throw itself (ie everything but recovery frames on whiff), you should go for close 360k there.
Which characters do I mean? Imo probably Abel, Blanka, Boxer, Chun, Dan, Fei, Fuerte, Gouken, Guile, Sagat, Sakura, and Viper. Your meaty o-s against Gief is super strong and forces him to block, but remember that it only works at a range that’s so long that only spd will work.
After a little more testing from the whiff neutral grab scenario I found two really interesting things;
1.) In corner you can confirm a back dash and get free 720 vs some chars (above 24 frame back dash was it David?). If they jump it is a free lariat or other anti air attempts like neutral J.mp. If they tech the throw you are generally still in range to mash a jab spd or just sit and gather info.
2.) Mid screen after a point blank or c.lk tick into throw you can actually time an EX hand to hit as ant iair! Though I tested vs shoto/Sagat(normal jump), Rog(small) and chun(far) it might not work vs everyone as I haven’t full cast tested it yet but chances look promising. Nuetral jump gives a lariat and back dash is an escape but there are tons of tricks in this situation. Tech throw puts the match into nuetrallity but you can advance them further into a corner from the push back.
A change of pace but vs Ken I’ve found that standing lk stuffs his poke game really well. Most mid level kens spam the mk run in or crouch mk and this stuffs both.
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Just a heads up, normal throw mixup is tooooo cheap 
Man this shit is fun too mess with
I been on that normal throw shit for a while now. Junk is great! I really don’t see a reason people would decide to never use normal throws with Gief. Its obvious that they have a short recovery time. Pushing? Thats what you wanna do! The possibility of a tech will mostly be in your advantage if used at the correct time IMO. When you DO grab em, its like people forgot a throw is a knock down that leaves you closer with just as many downed frames as 360K.
just got back from the shgl sessions…
i suck… lol, but thumbs up david.
bp amoco with really old news.
if you EVER be able to buffer the ex greenhand into s.lk…
couldn’t you do something like tap df, neutral lk, df 3P? I don’t really use the s.lk, for that angle I usually prefer s.mk (I know its dangerous, but the hang on it is so sexy), and for low pokes I’ve finally trained myself to use d.lk (instead of d.lp)…
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Which old news most of what I say is that. If it’s in regards to my anti ken post I think buffering the exgh when doing s.lk. Is a good call. Thanks for the tip I’m sure a lot of the non-experts will learn from it even though I’m sure it’s old news.
Is there still no concrete strategy against Seth’s epic keepaway?
Don’t think there ever will be. If there was the matchup would just completley change from 8-2 or whatever it is to 10-0 Giefs favor. I’m sure you already know the standard strats for him.
Check UD’s post at top of page, about as up-to-date and accurate as your going to find. And don’t be scared of the fight. Honestly, I treat him just like any other keep away character and understand that I’ll take some licks while getting in, the dmg difference is so great that its worth the risk to play aggresively. Hmm I need to check o nthe dmg of lariat->EXGH verse Seth’s Ultra on gief.
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What do you guys think of just pushing seth into the corner on dizzy instead of FA --> 360k? If you df-sweep him once he’s in the corner you can easily time a meaty headbutt and punish almost every single wake-up option besides his super, ultra, ex spd or block. Probably not worth it if you have ultra or super handy, but might be worth a shot otherwise.
well 360K (both versions) throw Seth a full screen away, so essentially you are pushing them into the corner as much as possible…EXGH combo might possibly be further (but not by much).
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