Unfortunately, it’s not a guess; you can OS punish it free if you just down-back and mash jab. If Gief goes to lvl 2 suction you’ll block. If he tries to do something out of lvl 1 suction, the jab will come out. Lvl 1 suction is 100% a gimmick unless you do it meaty off of EX SPD.
But that’s exactly what I mean. You said you can just down-back and mash jab during level one suction, however, if they are already blocking and I start to suck them in how do they know I am not just going to continue to hold VT for lvl 2 or stop once they get close. They still have to react don’t they and decide if they are going to mash or continue to block don’t they?
Or is there some visible difference that I just haven’t noticed?
The fact that level 1 suction is -6 is a complete joke imo. We should get a mixup but I guess that would be unfair to everyone.
Has anyone else had a problem with Super/SPD whiffing after a level one suction that caught them when they were pressing a button?
If they mash during suction after blocking the first hit then it won’t matter if you do level 1 or 2. Either their mash comes out and punishes or they’re stuck in block stun and block the level 2. There is no mix-up unless you confirm into the activation.
I don’t think you are understanding what I’m trying to say and maybe I’m not saying it properly because that has happened before.
I’m talking about the process of bringing the opponent in close not actually hitting with the VT lariat.
So for example, my VT is already active and I try to attack with st.LK which gets block and the I cancel to VT spin to bring them in at point blank range…
How will they know if I will keep spinning or if I will stop and try to SPD them?
They don’t have to know. Vtrig lvl 1 to lvl 2 is a true block string and opponent cannot do anything in between no matter how many buttons they press.
If they mash buttons, they will continue to block if proceeding to lvl 2, or their button will come out if leaving at lvl 1.
It’s not a 50/50, it’s a move that allows Zangief to confirm into big damage in situations where he normally wouldn’t be able to. The only time you should be guessing with it is when fishing for a counter poke activation, IMO. The frame data on hit doesn’t matter as much, since you should be confirming into damage at this point.
Once you V Trigger against a blocking opponent, the move is unsafe unless you spend a level 2 to force a continued block and push back. It only works against unaware players, but will pretty much lose to anybody who knows better. You don’t need to rely on the internet for frame data, go into training mode and test punishes against different moves to get the information you need.
Ok I just tested it in practice mode against Ken. Recorded Ken doing down/back block for 1 sec and then he is mashing cr.LP punch which is 4 frames. I did cr.HK (which was blocked), cancel to VT activation (just tapped HP+HK), HP SPD and wasn’t hit by Ken’s mashing cr.LP
Does it make a difference that I am on PC and you all might be using PS4?
EDIT:
Also was able to do cr.HK (again blocked), cancel to VT (same as above), st.LK, cancel to EX SE (st. LK was counter hit for mashing)
I responded in the other thread too but watched the video again. The reason why the spd works here is because you’re +3, he’s doing jab (making it a 7 frame startup because of the +3), and you’re beating it with the 5 frame SPD. He could hold up or up back or backdash and you would whiff spd.
the ken got counter hit by the suction. He didn’t block it so you were + in that video.
There is a counter for almost everything in this game. People aren’t computers they aren’t going to react with perfect frame data every time or even most of the time.
I didn’t realize having access to a 2 frame SPD would be a bad thing…
I’ve done it when the counter hit doesn’t show up as well…
Man you guys are cynical. First it was its impossible. Then it was if they block the initial hit it will be a true block stream and they can mash you before SPD. Now I show the video and its well that doesn’t count because the suction scored the counter.
I’m sure there will be a complaint about this one as well. As I mentioned people are going to react like a robot. Frame data really only counts from neutral positions.
I get it, but what you’re talking about is day 1 gimmick tech that has proven to get blown up. The 2 frame spd loses to holding up (or backdash) which results in a full punish. You don’t have to have supernatural reactions to hold up when you see you’ve been sucked in. If you do hit a level 1 suction on hit, why not just go for cr.jab, cr.jab VT and finish the combo? Especially if you do get a counter hit on suction you’re +5 and guaranteed to finish the VT combo if you cancel to it from a jab. What you’re suggesting is fine if you want to do it, it works sometimes, but what works even better is canceling to VT from heavies or flex for guaranteed damage. Big big guaranteed damage which Zangief seriously needs to compete.
I’m not trying to be a dick, but you’re showing setups that don’t work. Ken isn’t pressing jab when you’re doing SPD (look at inputs the cr.lp stops but start after SPD connects)
That loses out to jabs, regular throws and command throws. The reason it “worked” is because the recording stopped I take it.
I will just have to believe you guys that the recording stopped. And I have conceded its not a sure thing, I just don’t think people are going to react to it like you all are saying. I use my cr. HK enough were most probably aren’t thinking about me canceling to my VT. Most people after blocking a cr.HK are looking to punish me for it so this counters that I guess.
IMO would have to say this is just similar to st.LK cancel to lk.SE as it is something that can be stop easily but usually not the easiest thing in the world to react to. But I am still pretty much a newbie when it comes to Zief so I don’t want to act like I am some expert.
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Non-meatly LV1 VT is well known as a unsafe move, especially as the game already released few months, you CANNOT use this anymore, unless you a fighting against a scrub.
In addition, this is very easy to react to punish non-meatly LV1 VT, you don’t need good reaction, the dark screen when you active VT already grant opponent a huge hints to punish you after block your LV1VT.
Believe us, you can only use meatly LV1 setup in real battle, this also works well even you fighting with a strong opponent. They are really in heavy pressure after you suck them in.
However, it is known that V-Reversal & some wakeup uppercut (e.g cammy) beats meatly LV1 vt.
On v trigger hit, you do get a mixup. On block you don’t.
Set him to block recovery jab reversal, and don’t cancel vtrigger from a normal. Or even cr mp. It will show how punishable the move is.
Ask any giefs I have played with in the gief discord, you lvl 1 vtrigger me and you are eating an SPD. If I have enough time to 360 input and still win with 5 frames startup, it’s unsafe.