NickRocks is right. Allowing the winner to switch order basically nullifies the ability of the loser to counterpick.
very interesting
It doesn’t fully nullify the counter pick. You are basically getting a hard tag at match start, you can’t add/remove characters or change the assist. This means your team composition is the same, you simply have a slight bit of flexibility to help you at the 99.
^-- The fact that you had to qualify that is the problem. They originally aren’t able to “fully” counterpick you (perfect counterpick being only theoretical), so your ability to not “fully” nullify their counterpick is potentially just as powerful as their option.
Again, if I knew somebody was going to be That Guy, I’d simply demand blind pick against him every game. Seems more interesting to watch people play as players instead of seeing who is the better rules lawyer. Since needing to wait for people to blind pick each game is boring, I strongly support the non-Evo version of this rule. If your system is at any point boiling down to the second game being RPS at the Start screen your system is avoidably flawed.
I think this switching assists during the menu thing is kinda lame.
Trying to bend the wording of it to suit your needs is something a rules lawyer in WHFB or WH40K would do. You’re already up one game. Maybe the loser should start the match with his stick unplugged too?
The wording was never really bent, it was just confusing. I asked for clarification awhile back and then a rewrite was done to be more clear. This basically is just the ability to have 1 free tag before the match and nothing more. You cannot change the order at select screen and the opponent is free to do the same if they figure you might reorder to better fight your point.
I merely make the issue because I do this and fear having a matched stopped on me and having to address it, which creates delays and basically reveals my opener (both character and opening move) as they will call me on it after a few moments of game play, which is unfair to me. (I really doubt I’ll get a free round, which i’d hate anyway, and if I netted a hit at the 99…suddenly i have to redo my advantage).
If this changes fine, but I’m helping promote the message after seeing it happen on stream in a case where the wording seems to be guilty of not understanding the EVO standard’s old vague wording and didn’t clarify the load screen…it often only announced at player select screen. I feel honestly that the player was cheated on the ruling and forced to restart the match.
Me to Wiz: "still hate that rule so much. free partial countercounterpick for the winner"
Wiz: “don’t lose”
:tup:
Sure, your point is fair based upon the current Evo rule set. I think your title is wrong, though: should be “Accidental misenforcement of…” or somesuch.
lol @ “its not really a counterpick”
I would say it is a misinterpretation as most people I would blindly ask all assumed that you were not allowed to do this. Very few people seemed to know the proper way this ruling worked and universally everyone goes by the EVO standard.
As I do the same Assist/point/alternate point setup, I had to ask Mr. Wizard about the legality of any pre match changes, just so I don’t misinterpret and get fucked at Evo for it. Correspondence in spoiler below.
[details=Spoiler]
Me:
"Hello, I just have a quick question regarding the rule:
‘Winner must keep exact same team (including assists), but may switch order of assists via loading screen’
With my interpretation of this rule, it makes me think this course of action in this situation is legal:
Player 1 plays Ryu-a, Chun Li-b, Akuma-y in that order in game one. He wins game one. For game two, his opponent changes teams, making starting Ryu a poor choice. He picks his exact team, with assists in this order for game two, but holds assist 1 to start Chun Li instead of Ryu.
Is this legal? He is playing the exact same team, but is changing his order of assists. Also, if Player 2 chooses to pause the game, assuming Player 1’s action is legal, can Player 1 take that game as a win as stated in the rule:
‘Stopping a Game in progress to erroneously report a rule violation (e.g. your opponent has changed ultras after you have changed characters, which is allowed) automatically results in the forfeiture of the round by the player who stopped the game.’
Sorry for being longwinded, I just want to be sure that I understand the rules. Thank you."
Mr. Wizard:
"The point character can never change.
You are correct if they stop the match and they are wrong, you can take the win."
That’s super confusing he says just that. I explained that exact scenario and it initiated the rewording to read as so which clearly states point can be swapped since it inevitably will if you choose to do that option.
^-- Wait, could you clarify how or why you care about Point swapping vs Assist swapping? This is the first I’ve seen from you here wherein Point swapping is somehow on the table.
If you hold :a1: or :a2: then that assist is switching places with your point, thus the point is always swapping. There is no way to switch your second and anchor only during load screen. When I asked for this ruling to be clarified I gave an example of holding :a1: or :a2: during load and Mr.Wizard confirmed this was allowed then we got the new rule rewritten. I was very thorough when asking him (in more than one post) to be 100%. It is VERY weird he gives that sort of response given the conversations I’ve had.
The assist swapping doesn’t refer to changing order during select screen nor changing the characters assist type (I can’t make Doom go from beam to missiles on a win)…so this rule only makes sense if referring to changing your point during load.
So you’re saying you’re misinterpreting the winner keeps the same team rule?
inception horn
… no I’m saying we now have very confusing responses from the guy who writes the rules.
“Winner must keep exact same team (including assists), but may switch order of assists via loading screen.”
This statement pretty much states you are going in with the same team at select. It does not state you can reorder during select and your assists are the same. It then mentions on load you can switch order. Since your only options are :a1: and :a2: the point is always swapped with assists…thus the response Mr.Wizard gave “S” is very contradictory to this wording and the exact scenario that was approved by him with me.
Unless there is a way to ONLY swap second and anchor then the ruling only makes sense in the way I’ve described it. Mr. Wizard needs to clarify this…he’s saying 2 opposing things.