If they made a new age spinoff SF series akin to what Alpha was for SF2 and eventually 3 at the time, I would not mind having a CC bar and a Super Bar simultaneously. I’d find a CC bar far more enamouring and likable than the ultra system. I’ve been ricochetting ideas at this sort of SF game around my head for quite a little while. Dunno how well it’d tide over though.
What do people think of having a CC bar with 2 stages like Ultras, a super bar allowing for 2 super stocks and 5 ex bars, a super being 2.5 a piece and the ability to use mp and mk to cancel out of any motion unless its hitstun, including dashes, the start up of moves, the hit duration, wind down or even supers?
Think of it from an experimental point of view, sounds god awful or no?
The catch with supers/ultras though is that they require the character to be in a certain state, whereas CC has always been a simple two button activation. Imagine how scary Gief or Chun would be if they could activate their ultra just by pushing two buttons.
The other nice thing about supers/ultras is that if missed/blocked, you usually get a chance to punish heavily. You can’t always punish CC’s. Again, imagine Chun if her ultra was two button activation, and if missed or whiffed she had no recovery. Why wouldn’t a Chun player take a chance on random ultra to potentially blow through a poke or whatever else you might do? Suddenly, everything you do that isn’t holding down-back is wildly unsafe.
Crouch-cancel infinites were pretty much just icing on the cake, they weren’t what truly helped CC’s to be broken.
You have to remember that the big tripping-up point of CC’s is invincible activation, decent damage, little to no risk. Going back to A3, A/X-Sakura wasn’t too scary, but V-Sakura was terrifying - you could no longer jump at her - ever - and things you did on the ground became radically unsafe too. And with 50% activation, she had access to this wonderful tool twice a round at least. It gave her a huge advantage over characters who couldn’t threaten her with the same conditions.
And the shadows are what lead to unblockable setups. That’s basically just “If I have meter, you are going to lose life. Guaranteed.” SFIV has no counter-attack system, so depending on how the CC worked, potentially every character would have unblockable setups, but the ones I can think of now who would really benefit would be Akuma (again), Rufus, Chun, and maybe Fuerte (can you imagine trying to guess your way out of his wakeup pressure WITH a shadow making things more complicated?). Viper could also be really, really scary.
Another important thing to not forget is that so far CC’s have been featured in games that had alpha counters/a counter attack system. Without an AC, how would anyone get out of heavy CC pressure? If Sakura could do Shosho again, any round where she got meter and she could take you down to ~20% life would be an automatic victory for her.
Sounds almost like Alpha 3 meets Guilty Gear, and that sounds astonishingly broken in my mind.
Every match would be “Hi, let’s just mess around a bit until I get to land my 60% CC/super/FA cancel combo on you.”
I think the reason why Seiei Enbu sucked so much was the fact that the bar was like…
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And seeing how easy it is to gain super in SFIV, I think the fact that you’ll get it within xx seconds will overweigh the fact that the super scales horribly.
i think you read another post of mine. i suggested a watered down version of that in another thread. (or CC for ultra and the 5 ex bars for SF5 is just an obvious player request)
@ Azereal
:china: thx for the very informed reply. what if… all air initiated CC auto knock down on hit? it would eat up the time and encourage its start use from the ground instead. As my suggested CC would replace Ultras as an option select only, the user could FA crumble from frustration/exhaustion if missed/blocked at end of CC timer.
I was thinking/intending the (half CC) 1 shadow would still be blockable while the (full CC) 2 shadows would have unblockable set ups. With the damage curbed, 1 unblockable comeback option per round might be warranted. If i were more familiar with the specs of the other games subsystems I would feel knowledgeable enough to specify a more credible solution. I intend to look into it though and appreciate your feed back.
"the big tripping-up point of CC’s is invincible activation, decent damage, little to no risk."
so my hope is to
-warrant the invincible activation as an alternative pseudo Ultra.
-vary potential damages greatly but keep below that of a full ultra.
-increase the risk to user, particularly punishing on whiff and block.
your absolutely right about the counter systems present to mitigate a CC. My thoughts were to up date the Alpha-Counter, Parry System, and FAC properties to facilitate this role. This could enable the return of isms that partially reflect ST, A3, TS, and IV in a later SF related title.
I think my post in the other similar thread may have touched on this better than i have here.
^
Wasn’t the problem with Genei Jin precisely how fast the bar filled for how much damage it could put out? Don’t know about top tier, but Rose would’ve been more fun if that was her super, and by extension the game would’ve been a tad more interesting.
How many hard limits did Capcom put on Ultras in SFIV? I know Ryu’s Ultra doesn’t combo fully if you precede it with a Super, and you can’t throw an Ultra if your own fireball is still on screen. Sagat’s corner Ultra seems like another limit. Any others?
If they were willing to tone down in Ultras in this version, I’m pretty sure they’d do the same with CC’s if they were ever included.
capcom said that its intention w/ SF4 was to bring back players by unburdening SF’s game of unnecessary mechanics that accumulated over the years. By tacking on CC’s this late in SF4’s cycle- it would become convoluted and diminish the player base as additons of these types of mechanics have done in the past.
maybe if we start seeing casual players consistently fadc’ing into ultras, CC’s can be considered.
No CCs, I don’t want SFIV to turn into a game where a competitive tournament match turns into [media=youtube]Gk3kkyrFhRw"[/media]. When you can land a 99% combo of a CC, you know that the system is pretty much broken.
SF4’s main goal (ihmo): bring more people back into the Street Fighter world.
Street Fighter Alpha’s “gimmick” were the custom combos! Unfortunately (maybe for Capcom), if you didn’t know how to do this move well, you were TOAST against someone that knew how.
Street Fighter 3’s “gimmick” was parry. Outright powerful, downright nasty and it was also the deciding factor in a match.
Both of these “gimmicks” added a layer of game complexity that turned people off (for me, SF3 totally tuned me out). SF4 makes most of the very big damage stuff easier (with pretty loose timing, no less). I’m NOT a pro (slightly better than an average hack, at best), but SF4 is casual enough for me to pickup for 10-15 mins and deep enough for me to enjoy for 4-5 hours.
This, I could not imagine parrying in a game that plays like SF4.
Now for the topic, I think its time to give them a break is all. You have Yun in 3s, A groove in CVS2 and in A3. I just think we could do without it for awhile.