Bar the size of shin shoryuken, maybe a little bit shorter, same duration. And yun would be where he belongs, mid/high tier. Same as Yang.
And as for Yun, he’s as hard to play as he is to play against. You have to master complicated, ever-changing combos, alot of them character specific. Just because he kicks alot of ass when you can do that does NOT mean people who play him are “Brain Dead”. I don’t like watching pyrolee play, but it’s very clear he’s a damn good player. Ken and Chun are MUCH easier to use. Yun is the secret top tier character, that if you never watched tournament videos wouldn’t see much of because it’s hard for him to be good, and alot easier for people to just use ken/chun/whatever to win.
And yes, Yun is #1 on the tier list because of Gineijin. His style of play with other supers is COMPLETELY differant, as the enormous combos just reduce super damage by a ton. SA1 can be comboed after, so a 1-hit move into it, and after it a combo works pretty well, but there’s a really big bar and only one, so you cant ex. SA2 you cant combo after and does pretty bad damage if you combo into it, Dive Kick => Target Combo => Shoulder Thing => Super reduced the super damage to almost nothing.
It’s not just the fact that Genei Jin is tied for having the game’s smallest bar, it’s that you can combo into and out of it, individual hits still deal good damage, it doesn’t give the opponent any extra meter despite its many individual attacks, and it gives super-level priority to each individual attack. Fix any one of those things and Genei Jin becomes a reasonable super. It would still be very good, but it wouldn’t be the retarded retardedness it is now. In fact, if I had my way, I’d keep the bar short, still let you combo it, and still give it super-level priority, but I wouldn’t let you combo out of it, I’d scale the damage it deals down, and I’d make each hit give a small amount of meter to the opponent. Yay!
Go play with system directions. You’ll learn that increasing the size of the GJ bar doesn’t do all that much for damage in a single combo, since damage scaling ends up raping it.
In fact, a longer bar would probably make Yun even MORE top tier, since you’d be able to get guaranteed damage from combo-ing into GJ, then you could drop the combo mid-way and do a mixup back into another GJ combo.
IMO Yun is just another example of the same design flaws appearing over and over again, namely.
Custom combos are bad
Braindead easy combos to super are sometimes bad.
Pixies should not do more damage in a combo than everyone else while being faster than everyone else. Unless it’s some super combo that noone can get more than 50% of the time.
It’s not that he can’t be dealt with at all, it’s not like he’s so braindead that an infant could play him, just that the way he plays bothers me (from a design perspective). Yang IMO makes more sense.
I don’t know, I’d rate Makoto up there with Ken, Yun, Chun. One can make the arguement that she is the best character in the game. She has crazy mix ups and resets all made possible with her dash. Her command grab is a bit slow and will lose to a throw or a random poke, so I think that maybe this is one of the reasons she isn’t considered among Ken, Chun, Yun.
It seems to me that some top Japanese players like KSK, and even KO don’t like playing against Makoto players.
For example (in the corner):
mp shoulder, fp.shoulder (switches sides), air chain,
Then:
f+fp (hits them from behind, sends them back into the corner), more GJ stupidity.
Command grab, more GJ stupidity
Mash on buttons into more GJ stupidity.
Whatever. It’s not like this stuff is actually useful.
Makoto is too random. Mixups & resets are not guaranteed. Resets are good, but it’s possible to get out of them. Not to mention that her SA2 is a lot more limited than GJ. (eg. how it’s only comboable on your half of the screen.)
It’s like saying “Ryu should be top tier because shinsho has a ton of invincibility frames and does a billion damage” or “Urien should be top tier because unblockables are… well… unblockable.”
Yes it is possible to get out of them but it puts her at a strategic advantage. I agree that Makoto can be very random. I also think she can be zoned out by Ken and Chun. Some of the things she does seems very hard to defend. A basic example would be when she dashes in, she has the option of command grab, low short (perhaps ticked into command grab or just buffer it into hayate) , or EX Chop for an overhead which gives you another knockdown. I wouldn’t compare what I said about Makoto to Ryu or Urien. I think a lot of people would agree with me about Makoto. But I can agree with what you’re saying.