You have Catherine and Smash in your first post. Do you think either developer expected those games to have anything resembling a competitive scene? The Smash guy hated it so much he tried to make Brawl as non-competitive as he could and yet Brawl still has one.
the reason smash is ‘competitive’ while those other casual friendly fighting games aren’t?
the characters. smash is all about being something everyone can enjoy playing who has ever owned a nintendo console. so you get a huge amount of people interested, and some really enjoy it and want to push the game. so they find other like minded people and play it somewhat competitively.
i think it’s really just a numbers game.
that and it’s just a fun game.
Woah, woah, woah, no.
Do you know why patches come out to patch infinite or expansions tweak characters? Because of emergence. This is when something completely different happens from what a developer intended for their game. A combination of elements with the randomness of a player will essentially lead to a newfound element that they did not know. For instance, wave dashing in Melee, and option selects in Street Fighter. Developers are usually the least skilled in their game. The playtesters are the ones who become good at them. All the developer is doing is making a game where characters fight one another. They have an idea of how the attacks work due to tweaking their frame data, speeds, and such, but in the end, it’s usually to help fill a role the character fights as rather than knowing all possibly combos with it. For instance, Zangief shouldn’t have10 chain combos, at least easy ones, while Juri should be able to at least do 15 hit combos on a good day.
if there is people willing to compete on the game, then it is competitive
you will be surprised of how many games that anyone would say that have not competitive value or that are casual games, have competitive scenes around them
yes developers can make the game with competition in mind, but the players at the end, are the ones that make the scenes and the ones that take the competition seriously
its funny that you mention that game, because i have seen tournaments for many iterations of mario party in the past
Let’s get some definitions out of the way, specifically, my definition that I made up and the only one that anyone’s allowed to use and also, you’re not allowed to question it.
Secondly, why is there a Smash thread in Fighting Game Discussion? There’s a Smash forum on Shoryuken, if you didn’t know. This is off-topic and needs to be moved.
Sales dont mean shit tbh. Just because a bunch of kids bought it and made up bs tactics and tier list doesnt mean it gets respect as a competitive fighting game.
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Retitled thread, punting to Smash thread. This thread doesn’t make any sense to me.
Smash Bros Melee is actually an amazing fighting game. Those who hate on it don’t have a damn clue and are biased as heck.
Sorry, but that’s still wrong. It would either just be called a sports game or a tennis game. If your criteria for a fighting game is competition than that means that racing games, also in their own category, are in effect fighting games, which they are not. Also racing is considered a sport, so there is that as well.
Sorry if I’m sounding like a jerk, maybe I’m not reading your posts the way you intended or something.
It’s more or less what made VS a serious game. While smash isn’t a traditional fighter it takes easily recognizable characters and pits them against each other. So when you say DK vs Mario in a fight first it’s like LoL and then you learn that it’s not to be taken lightly.
This is funny how many top players want to see young new blood in the tourney scene? For example look at Noah and how talked up that kid got. For a scene to be able to grow you’re going to need young people buy into the scene. Like I said early in the post certain characters are easier to recognize. Comic books now a days aren’t nearly as popular as they were back in the day. However, nintendo is still running Mario DK Zelda and Metroid at you. Pokemon is still running and you got fans of that also.
Capcom however ditches their franchise established stars and gives the middle finger to him (megaman). Yeah you can say megaman fanboy as much as you want but the truth is that’s how you get casual people and let the scene grow. Then you throw some money at it and grows even further from there.
There’s a big difference between how Nintendo does things and how Capcom does thing. If Nintendo even bothered to show half the interest to support the competitive scene as Capcom did it wouldn’t even be a question.
I think the only way you can say Smash Bros is not a “fighting game” is if you suddenly retcon the definition of “fighting game” to be 1 on 1 players only. Which while many or most fighting games have been, not all have been. Even the fact that the characters in Smash can navigate stages behind merely moving left and right, doesn’t mean a lot. That’s imposing an artificial limit on the design of fighting games; who says a fighting game takes place on a single plane with characters always facing one another? Then Bushido Blade wasn’t a fighting game?
Ironically Smash is more like a traditional 2D fighting game than a lot of other games within the genre - 3D games are all over the place, some with free omni-directional movement (SoulCalibur), others with complex stages that can be climbed within (Bushido Blade).
I think one of the core aspects of fighting games is a total lack of randomness. Everything is in the frame data; even if things are moving too fast to predict it still isn’t random. Vanilla Smash Bros. doesn’t really fit this but the way it is played on a high level (no items/hazard stages banned) does.
just sayin, justin bieberga has sold a lot of copies of his trash, but that doesnt mean its good
I did this specifically to avoid derails into the subject of what is or is not a FG. Because that’s not what the thread is about. It’s fine to create a “local” definition that exists purely in the space of this thread for that purpose. Is it my real definition, or yours? Maybe not. But it saves arguments from retards and makes things easier.
So getting back to the question, why did Smash blow up competitively when other games like Power Stone, Naruto, Gundam VS, Virtual On, DBZ, etc did not?
Sure, I think most people in the Smash subforum would say the gameplay of Smash is good enough to stand up as competitive game - but I would assume we would all agree that at least Virtual On, Gundam VS, and some of the Naruto/DBZ games also possess good enough gameplay to be competitive.
So, after all of that, is it just popularity and the size of the player base? Or did something else happen? (eg. putting aside how good/bad Starcraft is, that game became the biggest esport purely due to South Korea, PC LAN Cafes, and historical accident.)
Just throwing this out…The creator of Smash hates the competitive community, but here’s the bitter sweet part…Capcom actually considers Smash a serious fighting game. Crazy ain’t it? If you want proof of that statement. Give me a shout.
Capcom sees the potential of Smash as a fighter, as they do with many games (that’s why they support CC2). The creator of Smash hates the competitive community because he wanted the game to be fun and enjoyable and entertaining, and competitive communities tend to sap that out of games with a lot of elitism and belly aching.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I wish the creator would grow some balls and understand the game is still fun that way. How could you hate your own game that got to EVO without no support from you?
It depends. Are other games intended to be casual fighters as unintentionally deep as Smash? I know Power Stone is pretty shallow, as are FG cash-ins like TMNT Smash-Up and Shaq-Fu, but I don’t know about the DBZ and Naruto games.
Fact is, in addition to being popular on its own account, SSBM is an exceptionally deep game, one that can be played for ten years, and people are still finding new tactics to abuse, and new counters for the new abusable tactics. There’s a depth to this on level with Guilty Gear, MvC2, Third Strike and Darksiders. It also helped that there was a highly motivated and deeply passionate community driving the game’s growth.
And I’m probably going to be flamed for saying this on this particular forum, but MLG did a lot for the Smash community. MLG 04 through 06 gave competitive Melee a lot of exposure and set the tone for just about every Melee tournament that followed.
Well, I’m not a high level player in any game so it’s hard for me to say, but I often wonder if some casual games might have some depth, but it never gets discovered due to them not being taken seriously by competitive players. But maybe I’m mistaken? The only experience I’ve had with casual fighters recently is the PS3 Naruto games, and it certainly seems like some people have tried to be competitive with them (and got annoyed at how broken / stupid they are) so maybe people -do- try to explore these games.