Execution is a big part of the appeal to fighting games, though that may not be instantly obvious. Without something to improve on where the results are clearly visible, most people would quickly become bored.
Odd, because a lot of people quickly become bored because fighting games require too much execution. I personally think the appeal in fighting games is its competitive nature.
I think it’s execution, but in a way no one here is thinking. imo, just the fact that you have a choice of what to do is more important than anything else. execution is far more than a move being a series of movements on a directional pad… in fact, i think that part of execution can be totally scrapped. i honestly don’t care if SPD, sonic boom, etc. can be fit into one single button, so long as it’s not a fuckin turn-based game, it’s all good. the important thing is that we can do what we want at whatever time we want (assuming that it can be done, of course), THAT’S the shit that makes fighters exciting
fighters will survive
Pretty sure he dosen’t play other games as well, and, you know, not playing the game youre developing is… More than enough of an example
i thought i mentioned this already but not a single person who develops any widely played game actually plays any games okay
I agree with all this.
:woot:
Of course it changes the game.
Making inputs easier, wider reversal windows, damage scaling, speed, etc, this all changes how the game is played.
When you have ZERO shortcut inputs, you greatly decrease your chances of doing something accidental, like trying to do a fireball and instead, you get an accidental Shoryuken, thanks to shortcuts (:df::df:+:p:)
Games with shortcuts will make you worse.
Once again, you don’t know anything.
And why do we have to stoop to scrub’s level. Why can’t they play on our level? They’ve been playing on our level for the past 20 years. Why only now do we have shortcuts?
New players are too lazy nowadays. Fuck instant gratification. If you want to become good at something, work for it.
Lazy fucks.
Wow. If you think SF4 is hard, then I don’t know what to say.
Go play Smash. Scrub.
Odd, because a lot of people quickly become bored because fighting games nowadays require too little execution
They will survive but the quality of fighting games will gradually deteriorate.
What good is a game that survives but the game itself is garbage?
Only three of those four actually change the game itself, and only two of those have anything significant to do with catering to new players… Only one overlap there…
If you’re doing something accidental, it’s an execution problem, period… Hell, I’m !@#%ing terrible at Street fighter and I almost never throw out the wrong move… Go into the training room and practice your inputs until the game does what you want it to. Simple as that.
Not going to comment on that bit of brilliance.
That’s hepful.
Who said anything about “stooping” to scrub level? Are you really trying to argue that the only difference between a good player and a bad player is execution?
Straw man, no one said you shouldn’t have to “work” to get good at something.
Missing his point.
Can’t agree with that, of course… you have nothing to back that statement up, and execution in SF has never gotten much harder than 1-frame windows, it can’t… and those still exist in 4.
Why is the game garbage if it’s easier for new players to play? Since you guys like to bring up basketball and tennis in some bizarre analogy here ( even though sports and games are different )… is Go ( the board game ) a garbage game because it has a low execution barrier?
SFIV is on a new level of retarded execution wise. I especially love how when I’m trying to dash out of a cross up and I tap right, right, to dash…well, right. I end up dashing left instead and end up eating a jump-in into a combo.
The miracle of auto-correct!
this but about my suggested changes to dumb sports like tennis and basketball and shit. if kobe and i can dunk all the same then it’s just about the real game the mind games as metaphysics phd and game designer david “low strong ass whooper” sirlin would say
Uh, the fact that Sega releases revisions of said game based on high level, gameplay tweaks and additions to said characters to promote balance in movelists and character tiers? The fact that they acknowledge top level players over in Japan and actually do things such as include high-level replay files on the product? The fact they sponsor said players in some cases? The fact that VF starting with VF4 ver.C had tutorial/flowchart modes that walked the player through understanding the system (and even VF3 was tweaked with the 3TB update)? And you’re trying to call him ignorant?
VS games were a mistake yes, and SF is a mixed bag; on one hand a few games were released and the developers didn’t have a good idea of its competitive metagame but responded by trying to fix the problems in a later iteration after players gave feedback through playing them.
Of course leniency and difficulty of inputs change the game. Certain moves are balanced around the accessibility of the moves. The most obvious ones being charge specials usually having better properties as normal specials being balanced by not being available at all times. But you can find the same principle in 360s and TK moves (ST is very obvious with them being balanced around their accessibility).
The SRK shortcut removing the obligatory forward input removes the pressure options you can apply in other games. For example ST also has autoblock like SF4 but because you need a forward input for an SRK in that game, just *attempting * one during a blockstring leaves you open for low hits (because autoblock reverts to high block when you let go of the stick). Making it possible to punish your opponent for attempting reversal SRKs by just doing lows in blockstrings. It is impossible to defend against throws and lows at the same time because of this.
Then there’s the autocorrect bullshit rendering crossups almost useless when compared to how effective they are in other games. Also something that has it’s roots in input leniency.
I think there’s something wrong with your controller if that’s happening.
You’re going to make my head explode.
Also David Sirlin is a genius.
Gonna have to disagree there. Charge moves are different because the charge is a hard coded mechanic, but for the rest of the specials… you can’t really balance around execution, because then at high level play when people have good execution, those characters will have an obvious unfair advantage… A few limited exceptions involving time to input a command ( namely command grabs and counter style moves become better the faster you can input them, naturally they’d become a bit more powerful if the input commands were shorter )… but those aren’t really the norm.
walkup or reaction 360 and tigerknee motions are obviously harder than walkup/reaction SRKs simply by the nature of their inputs. They take longer to complete, have a risk of jumping and and tigerknee motions arent available straight from walking forward.
And no those characters would not have na unfair advantage. The point is not how often the moves get messed up in high level play. But the point is accessibility. Moves with complex inputs may be mastered but the inputs prevent them from being used in the same manner as SRKs or Fireballs.
No. That’s a by-product of the way the SF4 engine handles inputs.(It’s actually :df: :d: :df:+:p:)
It’s not a new way to do the motion that Capcom put on purpose.
The only problem caused by lowering execution barriers in SF4 is the input window which is way too big.(Try jumping back with Hakan and doing an oil slide when you land- you’ll get an SPD)
All the rest of its problems are caused by the engine, or just bad game design.
Please find me another example, from a different game, where lowering the execution barrier caused harm to high level play.
(And I’m not talking about moves that were designed with a long input in mind, and you can have them done with a button press in a “beginner mode” or something like that)
I’m not arguing this point, but Brawl sort of ruined Smash’s competitive scene in general. There were Melee tournaments all the time up to the release of Brawl, and since Brawl has less advanced tactics and a floatier feel, there is significantly less competition. It’s much easier to be decent at Brawl than it was for Melee.
Input window in SSF4 is disgusting. Seth and Hakan are downright obnoxious to play as sometimes due to random 360s =/… wish they’d shrink it… actually arguable that it doesn’t help newer players at all, at least ones trying to learn the game, since devising ways to get the move you want to come out is another execution barrier >_>
Yeah, I have to agree, 360/720 motions and counter moves are the big exception here. Notably for instance, despite their horrid AI, a CPU zangief can pretty much SPD/super/ultra anything in the game basically on reaction, which is hugely powerful. But I still don’t think it’s utterly ubiquitous, it simply can’t be for balancing purposes beyond simple things like how quickly it can take in general to execute a given move ( which isn’t going to have a huge amount of variance ). Characters, as far as I can tell, aren’t necessarily balanced around how many 1 frame links they end up using, or put in a situation where more difficult inputs or dicier combos lead to a better character overall ( i.e. Gen’s Gekiro or Gen himself isn’t really better because the move was designed to be more difficult to execute, same arguably for Vega with his tight jab links as opposed to the easier jab chains most people have )
Its because Melee was never meant to be a competitive game. DUH! So brawl corrected this error. But I would personally be find with shortcuts if they allowed you to turn it off, ala autoaim in some singleplayer games.
Also I think memorizing inputs and requiring a level of execution to perform moves/combos make fighting games appealing. This isn’t WOW (or smash), where one button or click determines what you should do. And ultimately these games have a ton of other things to keep people going back that isn’t execution practice, so what do 1v1 fighting games have? Nothing, so you’ll kill half the game by simplifying inputs to one or 2 buttons…
Tell that to all the Flowchart Ken players that mash DPs.
Execution isn’t the only difference between a good player vs. a bad player, but it is a major one.
You could have all knowledge in the world but if you can’t execute that knowledge in a real match, then the knowledge you have gained is useless.
Because you have to dumb down the game in order for new players to play it in the first place.