What does Bison need for Version 2013/14?

Bison seems fine to me although his dmg output is really on the low side.
I’d like Capcom to give him a better headstomp tracking & hitbox/hurtbox of the followup.
It’s one of most powerfull attack of our arsenal but quite unusable, and then contributes to keep us on low dmg.
Countless stupid whiffed headstomp although I used it on purpose, just because the hitbox of a static move of the opponent & the poor tracking, led me to the ground. (for example, Akuma’s FA animation. )
I would then add some revamp hurtbox or some invic. frames on ex follow up to make it usable when HS connect on a grounded opponent.

It would give us a more usable heavy dmg tool & overhead skill enhanced, keeping us heavily dependant on charge but less on frame trap, giving us some more options facing turtle strategy and adding some minor comeback potential.

It could also be great to reduce recovery frames on TP, especially the forward one, to use it efficiently in our guessing game. Any CH whatever xx forward TP is unusable against any non-drunk player.

I read your proposals and this is what I came with:

  • Tech Throws: reduce the tech window on his throws from 8 frames down to the normal 7 that everyone else has
  • cr. HP: reduce the start up with 2 frames (10)
  • Ultra 2: reduce the start up with 5 frames (17)
  • cl Mk: - less pushback
    - +1 hitstun (+6)
  • Skull Diver: - buff the hitbox
    - better tracking abillity
    - Ex: hits in the air. Depending on the height you hit your opponent, it will cost more/less frames to land on the ground
  • Super: +10 dmg
  • Psycho Crusher: +10 dmg for normal versions (130-140-150).

Would this be ok for Bison ?

I would rather say :
Skull Diver : reduce the hurt box & / or add some invic frames on ex version

re: skulldiver - I don’t think Skulldiver needs a better hitbox, it just needs to be out for longer. Ideally it would be active till landing like in ST. If Bison could land his skulldiver combos more reliably, his damage would actually be kinda good. Devil’s reverse is actually the move with the awful hurtbox, but eh whatever.

re: FADC combos - I agree that changing the damage distribution on either MK or HK scissors would help his FADC damage. I would prefer HK scissors to be changed because chipping with the tip of MK scissors is still useful. The real problem is that Bison’s FADC combos require him to gain charge and all his followups involve lights which scale heavily.

re: knockdowns - In a setup heavy game, having the ability to combo into an untechable would be useful, but lots of characters don’t have this ability. I wish there was more time to do something after a scissors knockdown though.

re: cr.hp - Cr.hp having faster startup would be nice, but I think it’s a boring change. If j.mp had its hitbox extended upwards so it had more priority on the way up, that would be a more interesting buff to Bison’s AA game because (more) matchups would actually change once Bison gained ultra.

I have always had the habit sometime bad and sometimes not of trying to make useless moves useful. I am just stubborn like that. This said SD isn’t as horribly useless as DR is against good opponents. I can at least get a good opponent to block SD sometimes. DR generally just gets owned.

Reason for this is you don’t have to go for SD after a blocked stomp. You can bounce away or land for a quasi mixup weak mixup admitably but still something.

If anything better tracking on stomp would be better, if you dash to avoid it and it whiffs then I can agree with that. If you can press a normal or FA and cause it to whiff well that bothers me.

Agreed

I like your idea better, more priority on j.mp would be very very nice.

I think Psycho Crusher damage is ok , the stun however should be 200 points for all PC. The problem with PC is that you need the light version to end up in a good position infront of the opponent but the drawback is the fact that it deals very low stun (100). Cr.hp should be 8 or 7 frames start up to be a threat , I think he needs it to keep people on the ground without the need to guess.also It will be nice if they made both hits of Ex PC or EX SK to connect after j.Mp, that will increase his juggle damage because right now it is really not worth the meter to juggle or fadc.

After I watchedDieminion vs HappyMedicine . Wouldn’t be cool if they made match up specific fixes, I would love it if they made slide or L.SK Sonic boom invulnerable. Bison will be right at guile face and teaches the despair of not being able to keep him out (the same despair of not being able to get in ).

Give him a overhead - Ill win evo :smiley:

Seems fine compared to who? Other middling decent characters? Against the best characters, he’s definitely not “fine.” He has a ton of undesirable match ups, easily exploitable weaknesses and tried and true game plans work against him. The higher you go up the pyramid of experienced players, the worse he is. For frame of reference I’m 3800 PP. Against the top tier, he’s really not much to write home about. Bison is basically a good model for how SSF4 SHOULD’VE been. A character with reasonable weaknesses and counterveiling strengths. But in a game where some characters are great or very good or complete in most or all categories, Bison just doesn’t cut it. He is certainly not “fine.” I spent literally only a few hours in the training room with Cammy, then played some matches with people on my friends list, good players, and it was way more competitive than it should’ve been, and some matches were sooooooo much easier than they are with Bison. I’ve said in the past that I think Bison players should get much more credit for our wins because to compete past a certain level, you’re really relying on personal guile, great execution, reads, and strategy more than other players do. But he needs some serious buffs.

TBH based off what I have encountered so far the one thing Bison needs in this game is actual damage. It is insane how many more times I have to guess right than the other player at equal or higher level. Even when you are outplaying the other player most of the round (meaning I am guessing right 2 or 3x more and doing what combos I can based on the situation) the lack of damage compared to other characters most often means you still lose.

I think the problem here is that we need to get to the bottom of (find the truth) and reach a consensus in agreement with that truth, about what is the flaw(s) with bison. For trying to “fix” him by adjusting something that is not the cause of him being unbalanced (being in a state of actually needed buffs to whatever existent) would only create another imbalance somewhere else. Rather what must be done is to address the cause of his imbalance. If damage is what he needs then the next questions are how much and where to apply it and why? Thus we need to address the cause which will cure the symptoms and not merely treat the symptoms without treating the cause (which doesn’t get rid of the imbalance in the first place).

Here is my reasoning in a nutshell.

Given my experience and observation, I find it that the main problem dictator faces in many of his matchups is that there is always a way that the other character can fight relatively safe against him and do more damage than dictator can do when he plays safe. The problem then is that Dictator will always be out-damaged if one was to go blow for blow with him (so to speak for a combo would be counted here as a single blow). The objection what I just said is that dictator has some good high damage attacks like his jump-in-combos and hell attack (assuming ultra is charged). But notice that these are not safe and that in being unsafe they are inconsistent, where as dictator’s opponent can usually just play it safe and do more damage then dic from a safe or relatively safe position. also notice that his ultra setups and jump in combos are more situation specific and not BRB unlike the opponents in his matchups. His matchups tend to have BRB (even if what we mean here by “bnb” is limited to those matchups only).

In other words, I think the problem is that once the matchups are taken into account at high level, many of his opponents can simply play pretty safe games the whole time and do more damage if they guess right the same amount of times as dictator does. They avoid his high risk combos because in playing safe, these things are not as high a probability of posing a threat in most situations (thus why dic’s high damage combos are inconsistent).

But can’t we object that jump-in-combos and ultra setups aren’t the only way dictator can do decent damage? What about his heavy punishes? Well for one, these are not as strong as his before mentioned attacks (ultras and jump-ins) and two if his opponents play safe then the opportunities for him to use his heavy punishes are not as prolific as well as probable and hence, inconsistent and thus not reliable.

Thus the situation as I see it seems to be that in the Bison matchup, with most characters Bison is at a disadvantage because the opportunity for him to do great damage is less than his opponents once you assume both parties are fighting safe. While Bison can dish out good damage he needs to take more risk where his opponents, more often then not, don’t.

If what I said here is correct then he is at a disadvantage in just about every matchup he has.

I am not going to pose a solution right now, but what does everyone think of this analysis?

Disclaimer: note those that my analysis is at a general level for sake of brevity.

Edit: lol I want to say one other thing I noticed today. Notice how all of dictator’s moves that either flat out suck or aren’t ultimate are all done with his hands? Hell attack, PC, even EX PC got nerfed, skull diver and devils reverse, all of which such are average have problems. On the other hand all his foot attacks, HS, EX HS, his kicking normals, SK all are good moves. its like they just want Bison to be one of those prehistoric giant predatory birds with those dwindled and ill -formed wings (like a TREX). I concur with the Beautiful one’s experience.

Ex. PC didn’t get nerfed. It got buffed from vanilla by 10 damage and gained more consistent projectile absorption as well as adding an additional hitbox that can cross up opponents. Its a good move. Its safe on some characters when done at close range.

Headstomp on the other hand is a poor move.

160 dmg on st.hk do it capcom, do it.

I am referring to the loss of invulnerability frames which makes it get beat out more in regards to the EX PC.

The HS is a find move…you just need to use it for its purpose, which is to follow up or certain A to A anti A’s.

But this is splitting hairs, all that was at the last part of my post (the edit) which was really intended as a joke.

Above that is my real argument which tries to diagnose what I think the main problem with Bison.

lk scissors +1 on block, less pushback and 120 damage.

#kappa

There are too many variables to consider if you leave it opened ended. I think the questions that need to frame the conversation are things like: how much of a buff does he need before he’s broken? Would you be happy with a top tier Bison? If not, which tier? How much easier would you like your matchups against the rest of the cast to be? And the answer is different for different people. There are people who will pick the best character in the game whether they like playing them or not (why anyone would do this is beyond me, since I assume that having fun is more important than winning). And if you head over to the Cammy forums, they actually have a wishlist for how to make their character even stronger. Laugh along with me.

I assume most players play Bison because they like his play style, since he clearly doesn’t just dominate (certainly tier whores aren’t picking him). And that’s why I play him, but for me, what’s most impotant is removing the element of frustration associated with this character, and not so much the losing part. I don’t want a Cammy or a Seth. But I don’t want to feel like I lose because I had the misfortune of liking a character who’s kind of a predictable powder-puff.

There are too many things to list that make a top tier character, top tier. But there are some common threads between them. They’ve usually got a lot of moves (and in some cases, “an embarassment of riches” in this regard), which give them good or great options for most any situation, either offensive or defensive. They tend to be able to dictate play rather than being dictated to, or being forced to play the other character’s game. They have high damage. They have really strong and confusing shennigans, which are very ambiguous or so fast that they require precise, execution heavy blocking. They have great comeback potential, which usually involves a practical and useful ultra. And the last one, which is kind of abstract, is that you know what they want to do, but the tools to execute their gameplan are so sound, that they don’t need to surprise you with it. It’s effective whether you’re planning for it or not. To me, Bison doesn’t do well in any of these categories, and some, unfortunately just don’t apply to him at all.

True Talent has a Bison tactics video, which is perfectly fine for lower level play (and I’m not knocking ya dude, it’s cool that you did something to help the Bison community). And with those tactics, you’ll probably confuse the hell out of lower level players. But I feel like a lot of that stuff, upper level players wouldn’t even attempt because it stopped being relevant and useful long ago. People know what Bison wants to do, and good players can shut it down. And even if they don’t, it doesn’t translate into much damage. And good luck pulling it off again, once they’re more aware of it. As for pokes, they’re all well and good, but one cannot survive on counter hits alone.

The issue with Street Fighter is that the game doesn’t seem to be based primarily on considerations of “fairness.” Characters seem, by rotation, to get their “moment in the sun” with some characters getting them far more often, or for longer stretches than others. The question when assessing his buffs is, should Bison get that moment? If yes, then figuring out which buffs and how many really becomes a lot more obvious.

And again, Bison is different things to different classes of players. At lower levels, I think he’s a great character. But at the tournament level and advanced level, he isn’t, and he’s even a bit frustrating. In all honesty, I don’t know how good the current Bison could be if I practiced with him all day long, and worked out responses to every move of every other character in the game like the pros do. And I’m never going to be that involved in this game. So for me, what happens at the pro level is irrelevant, as it should be for 99% of the SSf4 community.

In closing, unless I’m leaving something out, there are only three areas of this game: Offense, defense, and mobility. I think his offense sucks. His defense is subpar, and with definite holes. And his mobility and speed on the ground is neutralized by players who understand Bison’s options. His jump is floaty, high and easily countered. In fact, I think characters with decent AA cannot wait for Bison to jump in. So I think his dash needs to be more Makoto-like. As for the rest of the buffs, the specifics matters less than where on their tier list we want to see him.

@ The Beautiful One,

I am in agreement with you to a point. Your analysis of Bison’s seems to be in agreement to my own, and I think we are not alone in that regard either.

However, I don’t agree with the idea that it ought to be the case that some characters get a moment in the sun. surely that is how it is, as you say, “Street Fighter is that the game doesn’t seem to be based primarily on considerations of “fairness.”” But while I agree with you that it isn’t, it ought not to be.

What we are dealing with here is a lack of balance. What would Bison need to either (A) give him a real fighting chance against other characters generally in a game like SF4 series (which may or may not result in him being top tier depending), or (B) give him what he needs given the current cast and relative attributes thereof.

Whatever is the best move we need to address his problems. I get that you are pointing out that we have to think about what kind of character we want him to be, but aside from aesthetics of tactics, which is surely subjective for each player, isn’t there some, more, objective criteria here for us to draw on?

What I am suggesting is that by looking at his flaws we can then know what he needs by countering his deficiency. i admit that this is general, but perhaps we can narrow it down by drawing attention to the “essence” of Bison. for example, giving Bison a DP would just make no sense on many levels but mainly because such a move, even if somehow it made no real difference in gameplay advantage would just not “fit” with the character would it? It wouldn’t fit historically nor would it fit in terms of what Bison is all about. and what Bison is “all about” is exactly what I am trying to get at.

We need to figure out the “essence” of Bison and not our own subjective fantasies about what we might like Bison to be like. Look, we all Like Bison (for those of us who main him game after game religiously) because deep down there we are drawn to his essence. I say, we find his essence and identify it and by comparison his balance solutions will become apparent.

There is a shamanic tradition called “soul retrieval” where the shaman goes into the neither world and is able to retrieve parts of one’s soul that have been lost in their subconscious due to mental and emotional trauma to make them whole again. I think we need to do a soul retrieval on Bison and perhaps our selves. Btw I don’t think those in the Rose forum can help with this. Only we can help Bison.

Oh, lord please no… He’s already annoying as it is. Lol

Bison’s clear problems start from damage. Start by reverting his normals to vanilla values.

I couldn’t find the data from vanila for Bison. What was his dmg then ?

For now, this is what I came with based on your sugestions:

  • Skull Diver: - becomes active untill landing, like in ST
  • better tracking abillity
  • Tech Throws: reduce the tech window on his throws from 8 frames down to the normal 7 that everyone else has
  • ju. MP: hitbox extended upwards so it had more priority on the way up
  • Ultra 2: reduce the start up with 5 frames (17)
  • cl Mk: - less pushback
  • +1 hitstun (+6)
  • Super: +10 dmg
  • Psycho Crusher: +10 dmg each (130-140-150-160)

Bison doing vanilla damage would be a bit much.

S.HK did 120. (110 at base, 90 at tip now)
S.HP did 130 (120 now)
CL.HP did 120. (100 now)
C.HK did 110 (100 now)
C.MK did 70 (65 now)
LK Knee Press did 100 damage 5050 (now it does 90, 6030) did 25 chip damage as opposed to the 22 it does now.
Ex.Headpress did 200 damage (now 180)
Throws did 130 (now do 140)
Pyscho Crushers did 110,120,130,140 for L/M/H/EX.They all do 10 more damage now and have a hitbox that does 100 damage on cross up)
Chip damage on old pyscho crushers was much better.
Nightmare booster did 540 damage (now 492)

Be overkill to have that back.