El Fuerte needs a chili pepper air projectile like Ibuki’s!
let Elf build meter by running.
Elf builds meter stupid fast whiffing lk guacs in the corner… they’re safer–considering the corner likes to ignore inputs.
well, the reason why i say it is because every shoto/projectile character can spam specials and reliably build meter early on. running is what Elf does the most so i thought hey why not…it’s not game breaking but it gives you more chances to EX run out of trouble.
My views are a little off, so I apologise if I step on any toes.
I’ll also be using some wrestling move names.
Health
No change to life bar. It’s far more exhilarating to play Fuerte this way. Keeps me on my toes and encourages mixing up. You can’t expect to have ultimate speed AND power… unless you’re an SNK boss.
Normals
I’d like some better animations, but really I think they’re fine. Would be wierd for a grappler to outjab striker types anyway.
close standing HK
You want a comboable ultra? Leave HK alone and you have the easiest hit confirmable launcher in the game.
Q-bomb
Take away the need to charge, and this move becomes Fuerte’s blanka ball… but we can throw it out ANYTIME. Are there any characters who have an armour breaking move that zips across the screen really fast with good priority that are NOT charge moves? Sagat’s EX Tiger Face Rape and Viper’s EX Zappy Hand… which require meter. No charge on Q-bomb means an easy counter to any focus from practically anywhere on screen. Taking away the charge on Q-bomb opens up a huge can of worms. Let’s just leave it and learn to use it better.
Run stuff
Continue to have runs vulnerable to throws. Learn not to get caught rather than complain that Zangief managed to push you all the way to the corner AND got a knockdown so you want an easy way out.
Build meter by running? That’s crazy. I’d have a full super bar about 10 seconds into the 1st round. It WILL break the game.
Safe splash? Too good. It would be almost as nasty as safe blanka balls.
Gordita sobat sucks. Improve the animation, or replace it with the far HK dropkick perhaps. I’d find that a lot better. Or, make it a hit throw like they have in Tekken and Virtua Fighter. If it hits, pressing lp+lk with good timing goes into a throw combo. Something new for SF, and something for us to brag about if we can do it.
Have back run K do other stuff as well. Maybe Enzuigiri with mk as a quick counter attack, lk as a backstep/cartwheel.
That moment that back run hits the wall where button presses don’t work? Allow unique moves to be done if you hit the button at that exact time. Eg. Lionsault, 619, Springboard dropkick, Flying cross chop and other off the rope lucha libre stuff. There’s tons of possibilities if the game designers just bother to research, and it encourages technical play.
And I dunno about you guys but I’d also love a special ground throw from forward run. Say you run straight into the opponent and press lp+lk, you do a special throw that does extra damage instead of the normal powerbomb/suplex. Give me Mistico’s La Mistica and I won’t need anything else.
Health
Sure keep his health, hang on while I call my friend over who plays with Akuma to take half your life with 1 combo.
Normals
His normals are fine
close standing HK
his HK is fine
Q-bomb
Leave it, learn to use it better. (I did)
Running
hell lets make s.lp give meter too while we’re at it lol
It’s fine.
splash is fine, gordita sucks ass.
fix target combo, something with lp so we can mash it while getting away.
I agree with everything else, make him more of a character that he is.
interesting ideas, but most of us are approaching this from a ‘what are fuerte’s biggest shortcomings’ angle, as opposed to a ‘would be cool if…’ angle
like the whole gordita sobat and quesadilla bomb thing. sure it would be nice if those moves got tweaked, but they likely wouldn’t fill up any real holes in his game, and fuerte’s ability to compete would probably only improve marginally
fuerte’s biggest problems are:
- stupid hitboxes in general
- people jumping back
- characters that can adjust air trajectory (mainly divekicks)
- characters that can maintain offensive momentum
- akuma’s standing roundhouse
- punishing any unsafe moves that he can’t RSF
- low overall damage; risk/reward in a lot of scenarios
i don’t think anybody’s suggesting that we fix all of the above problems; weaknesses make a character interesting almost as much as strengths do. but in the interests of making a character more competitive, addressing weaknesses is the most efficient way to go
of course this is all just open discussion and nobody besides us is ever gonna see this thread, just sayin’
I am shooting this out there because I think el fuerte needs better options on wake up. What if fuerte had a invincable run but only lasted as long as C. Viper’s invincability during her ground pound? This option would only be avaible on wake up and no other time. This would only apply to EX run on wake up and EX run regularly would absorb 2 hits like usual. In the corner it wouldn’t reset because of the auto turn around but you guys know which moves have invincability frames anyways. The rest stays the same.
Please post opinions if you like.
I also support the run and press lp+lk as an extra option.
A major improvement on the Gordita Sobat attack, right now is useless… and Quesadilla Bomb have to be faster.
I dont think an invincibility frame packing run is good. I like busting out a reversal ex run to take 2 hits and get away. it usually makes people jump the gun and screw up for us to get a free punish.
I think the main thing that should be dealt with are as Buktooth mentioned
low overall damage; risk/reward in a lot of scenarios
people jumping back
akuma’s standing roundhouse
punishing any unsafe moves that he can’t RSF
I feel these are the major issues. Tweaking Akuma’s S f RH, making one of our Guacs more Horizontal reaching, Increased damage is the answers we’re looking for.
i still stand by my earlier post, namely with gordita sobat and Q-bomb
Some really great points in this thread that didn’t cross my mind. I still want HP buff, but it seems there are priorities such as what certain problems he has with “specefic” characters. Certainly having characters who can change thier air trajectory makes landing the ultra almost impossible on them (if they are pros). definitely Gordita should get a complete change.
On a less serious note:
@Sacojericho: now your avatar is EXACTLY what I want for an altrnate costume for Fuerte XD
Ultimate? We’re asking for baseline normal health. As for power, already made an example of low health/power chracters, yet they have far more ability to dish heavy damage. See Akuma point made above…
His normals are stupid slow, little priority, and no combos(outside of run cancels+links). Considering Elf’s speed, you’d think he’d also have some fast normals at the expense of range. Yeah, Gief is slow, but his normals are damn deadly. same with Abel.
Ah, EVERY tatsu (Ryu, Ken, Dan, Akuma, and Sakura), Rose’s dash, Seth’s firework kick, Fei’s chicken wing, Abel’s Terry Kick, Gouken’s dash… I think you’d be hardpressed to find a character that doesn’t have a forward momentum armor break… like Guile. Even charge characters only need 2 seconds without the loss of any major move. All those moves have a decent half screen range to counter focus… I think we’d all suffer some QB range loss for something more practical.
It’s only current seen use: Chip death. I’ve seen a small handful of pro Fuertes use it after building meter in the corner, that’s about it.
Who said anything about command throws? I’m talking normal throws. Again, almost every character has a wake up reversal to deal with oki-throw games. Even joke Vega can Scarlett Terror. The only other character with no wake up option is Abel… which is simply suicide to attempt throwing him on wake up. It’s like playing paper rock scissors, and not having the ability to choose rock…
I agree with everything else.
i think his health/damage is fine. his speed makes up for it. in many games the weak characters usually have other advantages such as speed, priority, and many tools. el fuerte just needs more useful tools.
The only change I would like in terms of dealing damage is buff up the fajita buster. It should deal more damage because it is an extremely risky move. Think of it this way: If someone does FA to counter, they don’t care much if they guess right or not, because if you do splash, they will win and punish you with a lot of damage through a combo or ultra, and if they guess wrong and you catch them with fajita buster… so what? it doesn’t do much damage. However, if it does a good deal of damage, the opponent would think twice before gambling with an FA. Thats my take on it.
I agree. I rarely use Fajita as it is, as all they gotta do is Duck, jump or DP
every time a Shoto fireballs you should LK guac over it or FA it anyway. so they get free meter but you get free meter / Ultra
RE: building meter by running
I said day one “if you could build meter by running this guy would be unbeatable” since you can activate like 4 runs per second. I’d have to say that building meter by running would be pretty damn busted unless it was a very, very, very small amount. If a run built the same meter as a guac, I’d have a super in like 7 seconds.
RE: suggestions
If you gave him all of these things I’m listing he would be pretty overpowered I think but I would love to see a few of these, not all. Note not much of this is well thought through but I basically am trying to balance fuerte’s 3 biggest weaknesses IMHO which are:
- Difficulty in chasing down jumpyjump turtley opponents without taking risks that aren’t always in your favor
- Bad defense vs. pressure, good jumpins such as divekicks and certain normals. People when fighting fuerte, who know the matchup, don’t really have anything to be afraid of when they are rushing you down, the worst thing you can do is get away.
- Complete lack of a damaging midrange punishment option for the opponent’s whiffed attacks.
Heres the suggestions of which I think if you took any 2 or 3 you’d make some big progress:
Fajita buster causes a bounce, allowing you to combo off of it.
Make ex guac hit grounded opponents, like a knee pop up then air grab type thing. Keep invincibility frames, so it is basically a ex dp with 5 frame startup(safe jumpable). Combos off of jabs/shorts. Other guacs trajectory changed, HK version goes 3/4 screen, MK goes where HK goes now, LK remains unchanged. Remove all invincibility from regular guacs, but change their hitboxes so that they have the priority of a normal airthrow(i.e. if you’re in the air, it will 99% of the time win).
Give giga buster the possibility of going almost full screen so that you can punish fireballs and jumps from farther away, like chun or abel can. Make giga buster comboable. Right now, you could end RSF with stop ultra if it was comboable, the move comes out fast enough but the game won’t allow throws to combo. I mention this because there are some matchups now where you simply cannot land the ultra unless the opponent does something remarkably stupid or gets hit with a focus attack.
Make splash -2 on block, or increase its damage significantly to make up for the risk, as right now it is rarely a good gamble if the person knows how to punish it. I know that if you upped the damage it would make the game no fun at all for the scrubs who die to it now as it is, so making it safe on block would be the best choice I think. The splash as it is now, is a scrub killer move and has little application in high level play due to the risk reward simply never being in your favor(I have said this from the beginning of the game being out, when everyone was still splashing the whole cast to death without a care in the world).
EX bomb has 1 hit armor, goes full screen, does its current counterhit stun on normal hit and 600 stun on counter hit. Add more recovery to the move, so if it is blocked you are going to eat a combo every time, but give it these things so that you can use ex bomb if the opponent jumps backwards. Regular bombs become more punishable than they are now on block, in exchange they always knock down, do more damage, and are comboable off of mediums at any range. Charge time on all bombs down to lv1 TAP time(no time at all).
Give him chun li’s backdash properties.
Low short sped up to 3 frames.
Low roundhouse startup reduced, standing far fierce startup reduced drastically.
Standing forward completely changed into something that doesn’t look like a retarded kid trying to kick over a trash can.
Some sort of jumping attack that goes a decent horizontal distance, or a real crossup that doesn’t just work on some characters, or both.
RSF works on all characters, crouching and standing.(if nothing else, this alone would change a lot).
Take out the overhead properties of the far RH, but make the first hit uncrouchable so this would be a decent midrange poke against more than just a few characters.
Gordita sobat crumple stuns or launches allowing close rh xx guac after on counterhit. In trade, gordita sobat becomes -3 on block.
Tostada press and fajita buster can be performed in the air. Allow them to be buffered into from jumping attacks. I know this sounds crazy but it wouldnt be the first time a fighting game character has had something like this. Wouldn’t be any worse than some of the things viper can do.
Shower kick counts as airborne, unthrowable and goes over lows. This combined with change #1 would allow shower kick, stand jab xx ex guac to be a combo for knockdown and good damage and this would counter throws and low pokes.
Caramale sliding safe on block.
A command throw with a 2 frame startup. Does moderate damage and has the range of a strong ochio.
New ultra should be something that combos off of q-bomb fadc. This combined with making q-bomb combo off of mediums without counterhit would give you a really big deterrent to random midrange whiffs from the opponent, which you don’t have now. If they give you the new guac I mentioned above, then you could ex guac fadc to this ultra also. Animation I could care less about, make him drown the opponent in a barrel of salsa for all I care.
OR
throw out all that stuff I just said, and increase the damage on EVERYTHING fuerte does by 1.5x, and give him 1000 health. That alone would fix virtually everything.
This.
Not. That.
You guys want tortilla to do more damage than an SPD?
lol… well… when you put it that way = p
I actually love this move :lovin: