What are your thoughts on Ryu's USF4 changes?

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
101

The truth is that if you read the USF4 Capcom Cup Build Change List and updates for Akuma and Seth they specify that they will not be able to focus-cancel the 2nd hit anymore:
Akuma:
M Goshoryuken 2nd hit can no longer be EX Focus-cancelled on hit
H Goshoryuken 2nd and 3rd hit can no longer be EX Focus-cancelled on block; invincibility time reduced from 6F to 5F

Seth:
L Shoryuken 2nd hit no longer can be focus-cancelled on guard
M and H Shoryuken now can only be EX Focus cancelled on the 1st hit; invincibility time reduced from 7f to 5f.

But with Ken they didn’t specify that meaning that he will be the only one that will be able to do it in USF4 as we all could see in the most recent location tests.

102

From the latest location test changelog:

So… more combo options out of DP FADC, and now one that doesn’t require ultra 1? I honestly think that sounds pretty good.

103

But also riskier to DP FADC now cuz of frame advantage. 5 frame disadvantage is enough to be sweeped on a blocked DP FADC. Not liking that.

104

minus 5 is enough to punish with cr mp cr hp shoryu…
it means that shoryu ultra 1 is now combo and AA option only, no more a frame trap option.

It really make U2 even more useful for Ryu.As for U2 you will cancel second hit of ex shoryu you can either confirm and dash forward or see the guard ans dash back.

I have the feeling that ryu is missing something yet. Delayed wake up will be the thing that will make or kill Ryu in this version. It will have more impact that is jump mp change or is cr mk amd ultra 2 change.

105

His changes are more for aesthetic purposes nothing really useful for winning a match.

106

Is the crouch forward xx hadoken fix still in or not? If so, that is best buff he has as it helps ryu pressure (especially when pushing out of the corner) and gets rid of something that kill even the pro players on accident sometimes (accidental shoryuken)…

107

You know what. At first I was more optimistic with the changes to Ryu and if you read earlier in this thread, I had even defended it. However update, after update, and patch after patch, it is without question that I’ve become increasingly more and more concerned about Ryus changes overall.

Aesthetic might actually be the best word that I can describe how I feel about the current build of USF4 Ryu at this point. The only two changes that will give some benefit to him at this point from the list in my opinion is the c.mk, and the easier option to land U2. At first I kept trying to say that the potential for j.mp into Air-Tatsu might be pretty cool, however thinking it over long and hard…how does this really improve his gameplay?

Firstly, Ryu is a very, very strong ground based character, so improving his juggling abilities in his air attacks to me detract from what Ryu should really be needing. Of course everything is speculation because we have no idea how good this new change is, but what I’m wondering is…Can we actually get more then just Air-Tatsu off of this? Does Ryu land before the opponent from the air?

If so, will their be the possibility to produce more juggling potential from it? Because to me, the only way this buff will even be remotely credible is if it had option qualities after the Air-Tatsu cancel, otherwise outside of that, it’s just another situational and yes, aesthetic change to Ryu and nothing more.

The problem that I see is that looking at the changes their is nothing that pops out leaving you saying “Yes, this is going to make some of Ryu’s matches much better now!”. Almost everyone in the current build you can say “Wow, this will definitely change things”, however here, it seems like as those Ryu is almost forcefully being left to be the closest to his AE:2012 version which also isn’t the best of ideas.

When looking at the most current USF4 build, it is without question that many of Ryus advantageous matchups have now become more difficult for the most part, while his 5-5 even matches you could potentially say may actually become a disadvantage. You have this, while some of his tougher match ups have either changed little or in some instances…gotten worse because some of those particular characters got significant buffs.

At this point, they minus will just give Ryu back his Vanilla SF4 c.mk because at least this will provide us with a buff we 100% know will definitely improve his gameplay for the better. Not a fan of the changes thus far…Yes, I could be proven wrong that when USF4 comes out, Ryu could end up being one of the Top-3 strongest because the changes we’ve seen so far were in fact significant enough to push him there, however how many on here can honestly read the changes and feel that he’s going to stay where he’s at (which in AE:2012 is still a Strong Character) or become even better. I certainly don’t see it at this point.

Aesthetic at this point feels the most correct. Their is still time, so I’m hoping that we do in fact see something worthwhile soon.

108

I will give my 2 cents.

I think his c.mk buff is better than what may seem. I believe this because it would seem like the motion of input the move has decreased. In other words when you are playing that footsy game and you are advancing forward that slight pause before you c.mk comes it will be eliminated. In a sense it will feel like ryu can walk up to people more easily and c.mk without worry would give the inpression of increase pressure. So add the fact that c.mk will be -2 on block, c.mk will be an overall pressure tool. If you really want to under stand .cmk pressure what you should do is practice empty c.mk mixed with c.mk hadouken and see how you can trip up your opponent.

Next. j.jmp buff. I think it has a potential. Can you do ex.tatsu in the air for 200 dmg for follow up? They increased the vaccum effect right?

I am also excited about 3bar U2 damage for 600 plus from ex.dp into u2.

109

Was just wondering about something. Since everyone who has a DP now would be forced to FADC backdash now on block, would a tatsu be able to catch them before they recover? This can be an indirect buff for Ryu if so.

Actually, I guess not…the startup frames on all the tatsus don’t support that theory :confused:

110

Regarding the shoryu fadc , you will be able to punish it with ryu’s super.
shoryu fadc back dash should be - 16 now. so you could walk forward 11 frame and the do cr. hk. So you might be able to punish.
But honesty the capcom message is obvious: no more frame trap with shoryu fadc.
Ryu should only use it as AA followed by an ultra or jumps mp tatsu.

Ragarding jump MP cancel tatsu possibilities, here is a small video :

http://w8ww.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4JCzfeMG4

you can cancel the mp with tatsu in order to only touch with the first hit of jump mp. result is that a soon as you touch the groud you will be able to juggle the opponent with whatever you want( hp shoryu or seep…)

if the opponent is on the ground and you jump and do a mp tatsu, however air tatsu start up is so long that nothing will come out, you will touch the groud a disavantage. so not a good idea.

cr mk being a little bit better is good, it will make cr .mk hado safer. now, it was part of ryu game to mix between cr.mk hado, cr.mk ex hado, cr.mk solar plexus. I don t see the change affecting Ryu game that much.

for me delayed wake up might have more impact than all ryu changes. No more safe jump with ryu after a sweep followed by tick throw/frame trap set up.

Overall with the fact that they took away his shoryu fadc frame trap and mashing shoryu fadc ultra threat, I feel like ryu might be in a bad position in the version…

111

I am pretty happy about getting that cr.mk buff. Imho it’s all that I wanted for Ryu (and slightly more back walkspeed, but that’s not gonna happen). I think you guys really underestimate this cr.mk buff. I don’t think you fathom how much stronger this makes Ryu in footsies. As someone has already mentioned: Ryu can freely walk up and poke with cr.mk xx hadoken!!! That’s huge.

112

sur cr mk is a nce add, but his cr mk is still not as good as his vanilla one. So don t think that that gona change match up.
however no more shoryu fadc as a bet( I just tested and sweep will punish shoryu back dash), plus delayed wake up and ex fadc( perfect against cr mk hado/ cr. mk ex hado) will hurt ryu game.

for me Ryu seems less good than in this version, it s not a jump mp that occur every 20 fight that gona change something. walking forward and beeing able to do cr mk hado really fast is good, but remember that at max range opponent will still be able to fadc the hadoken.

I just tested on kingblacktool version of usf4, you are still able to fadc shoryu to punish cr mk hado. it s still not a true block string, and I am not even speaking about cr mk at max range…

113

Good point about his core game needing more improvements. The mp tatsu will just give an extra option off of something where there is already several options. It really depends on the damage and if it is worth using 2 bars to do dp fadc jump mp, because that is where it will be used mainly (I know you can do it off a raw jump mp, but that rarely happens). So the only times i can see this being used is after a combo into a dp if you don’t have ultra or off an anti air dp without ultra, again if the 2 extra bars is worth the damage we will have to wait and see.

I’m not sure about DP fadc forward dash being -5 on block yet. I’m not sure if i can confirm if it hits and decide to dash the correct way in time. If it’s possible then it isn’t that bad (I don’t think it is possible though), but I’m also reading that you can be punished even if you backdash now. This is huge and will take a lot away from Ryu. DP can’t be used offensively anymore too, what i mean by this is that you can’t use a shoryuken as a frame trap anymore. This is huge for Ryu too, because it removes a lot of his damage potential.

Match ups will definitely be harder, especially the mid and low tier characters, but the high tier match ups will be easier.

Delayed wake up will affect Ryu harder than it will benefit him in my opinion. In theory delay wake up is good for everyone because you can easily escape wake up pressure. Not being able to do Ryu’s safe jump os game after sweep is huge and it was what allowed Ryu to apply safe pressure and stay on people. Then again pressure from characters like Makoto, Ibuki, Viper, etc will be weaker, but we can’t pressure them as effectively too… so idk. It really comes down to whether you get most of your damage from the neutral game or pressure and for me personally it’s the pressure.

Match ups like Balrog, Guile, Rose to name a few are matches where I just try to get a knockdown and get most of my damage and it’s the opposite for those characters they try to keep you away or outspace you. Delay wake up will benefit those type of characters more than they will Ryu.

114

as AA, deep hp shoryu is 160 damage mp shoryu jump mp tatsu is 202. so 40 damage more for 2 ex. usell except to make sur to kill someone.
as a combo shoryu lp fadc jump mp tatsu is 222 compare to hp shoryu being 160. if you had the scalling of a jumping attack then you can see, one more time this is useless…

go to training room then random guard and try to confirm with fadc forward ultra if the shoruy mp touch and back dash else. that just impossible, at least for me… and it will be for 99.99999% of the people.

in the latest build shoryu fadc forward is minus 5. it use to be -1. 4 frame more that plenty of time to punish with cr mp or sweep.

That not bad for the game as it take some randomness and mashing. But they should give ryu some new tools. That gona be hard.

115

Or U2 with full animation? Test it out please.

116

yes after jump mp cancel tatsu, if you makr it so that the tatsu does not touch, as soon as you land you can do U2 with full animation.

117

In Kingblacktooth’s mod, EX DP, FADC, j. MP, air HK tatsu results in the HK tatsu hitting twice for a ton of damage. Just that alone does 335. If you were to punish someones mistake starting with a F+HP combo, you can do up to 445 damage. I figure this probably wasn’t going to be possible in the real USF4. But then I saw this Kim1234 tweet

I haven’t seen this in action so I have no idea if it all really works this way but if it does then at least they bumped his FADC damage potential by a fuck ton. It’s expensive but at least the pay off is huge if the EX DP lands. And unlike regular DP’s, I think EX DP’s are still safe.

118

The universal change of shoryu fadc forward -5 is a stupid change and only caters to charge characters. They have already given them delayed wake up and now this. If they are trying to make shotos like the other characters then shotos should have an insane backdash and a special move we can spam all day and pokes on balrog and vegas level. It’s a stupid change and only going to make charge characters more of a pain to deal with, they will keep pressing buttons and not have any respect for the shoryuken.

119

It may not stay. Best to rebel and yell.

120

Yea, with the fadc -5 change charge characters will only shine even more. A lot of them are getting really good buffs and with delayed wake up and red focus pressuring them is going to definitely be harder. I can see a lot of match ups becoming harder such as Guile, Balrog, Dhalsim, Rose, Chun-Li, Dee Jay, Gouken, Juri, Sagat, and Vega just because of delayed wake up and red focus. To make matters worse a lot of those characters are getting drastic buffs too, while Ryu just gets more combo options.

What match ups do you guys see being harder or even easier with the new changes?