Simple way one of my friends started out is doing cardio and lose a majority of his fat then gained a lot of muscle.
My other friend, he’s building muscle then gonna shed some fat over the next 2 or 3 months.
Eating right is definitely a big key.
Where are deadlifts? Why do compound movements have the exact same rep scheme as isolations exercises?
deadlifts are on leg day, “stiff leg deadlifts” working hamstrings and lower back, and why not? he is a beginner…additonally you posted a strength routine which he is not looking for, just to let you know…
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How do you come to that?? Unless westside is completely beyond me, it was my understanding that Dynamic Effort Day was when they trained for speed and explosiveness and Maximum Effort day was for 1 rep sets…]
There was a statement made in the article that more or less said, heavy weights+ slow eccentrics = more likely to strain ligaments and tendons…One of your goals as a serious bodybuilder/powerlifter should be to minimize the chance of injury…cuz you and me both want to be doing this for the rest of our lives. Like wearing a seat belt, driving the speed limit and not drinking and driving…you can still hydroplane or have a blowout but ur chances are alot better you feel me??
You’re exactly right it doesn’t…that wasn’t what I was getting at…Westside talks about relaxing during the eccentric phase of the lift so as not to tax the muscles too much…Supposedly the eccentric portion of the lift activates the most muscle fibers, especially when emphasized. Again, my advice was not for powerlifting…With lighter weights, he could relax more during the eccentric phase and concentrate on a speedy explosive concentric.
You are exactly right. But we aren’t benching or doing deadlifts…we are squatting…In your original post you spoke of decreased kinetic energy taking away from an explosive concentric phase due to a slower eccentric…I was just stating that since I wasn’t talking about box squats that kinetic energy is less of an issue since the body has nothing to “rebound” off of. It’s actually contracting muscle tissue that controls when the eccentric phase ends and the concentric begins…I can see how my point wasn’t clear…sorry.
Exactly right again…in this instance I am adopting dynamic efforts…and “better” is a relative term…are we talking about muscular endurance or muscular strength??
Now your taking what I say to extremes…I never even mentioned rep schemes…and “light” is also a relative term…what’s light to me is prolly not light to you. J/K. Of course he would work up in weights…as he got stronger…but the starting point would be a weight that could be moved within the desired parameters regarding an explosive concentric phase…Are you saying here that he should start with heavy weights and work on moving it faster?? That’s one way to go I guess…But with my clients I would always start with a lighter weight when doing a new exercise or an old exercise in a different way…
Now if I was really adopting powerlifting methods then this cat would prolly be training this movement much more than once a week…then I might play around with rep schemes and intensity, so as to avoid homeostasis…
Don’t know why you posted this little tidbit twice…but it’s not that I don’t welcome debate…but in regards to something as obscure as jump training…it’s next to pointless…Had you said “I disagree…this is what I think he should do…citing specific exercises perhaps listing intensity and volume” I could better debate the differences in advice given…
You didn’t really advocate anything though. Talking about writing a thesis, are you serious?? You do realize how old some of these cats on here are right? If I articulate it’s to communicate more clearly…Everything I’ve ever posted on here is straightforward and to the point…that’s why some people on here value advice I give.
Do you not see how this post is directed more towards me than it is the original question??
If you like doing full body routines then stick to them…do them 3 days a week…say mon, wed, fri…Since you are trying to lose weight, I would even recommend this way of training… supersetting antagonistic muscle groups to keep ur heart rate up as well…An example of one workout might be…
All exercises to be done with 3 sets of 8-12 reps, resting 60-90 seconds between sets…
Day 1:
Bench press (BB or DBs)/One arm rows
Military press/pull ups (or lat pulldowns)
Incline Flyes/Reverse Flies
DB curls/Dips (weighted if you can)
Squats
Stiff Legged Deadlifts
Calf raises…
Change it up for the other days…maybe doing deadlifts (I think me and reidar do agree on this one heh…gotta deadlift) instead of squats and leg curls instead of SLDL’s…You might also try different angles of the same pressing movements to change things up…and there are a multitude of bicep/tricep exercises you can do instead of the DB curls/Dips superset…
Of course you would want to clean up your diet and do cardio maybe 3-4 times a week as well…
Hope that helps…
No. Both days are training for speed and explosiveness in different ways. DE is doing that via speed lifting, and ME is doing that through strength training. The semantics of their names do not limit those attributes to them, however.
Again, the weight may be moving slow, but your muscles are explosively contracting underneath the heavyweight in order to even do so. That’s considered lifting fast, regardless of what the barbell is doing. Yes, you are lifting the barbell, and so it makes sense that you would describe what the barbell is doing to describe lifting, but it has a lot to do with the nuerology of your system and how they are working underneath there. There IS a world of difference between your muscles going all out and your muscles purposely being held back to lift slow. That’s the difference between lifting explosively and non-explosively. When Scott Mendelson lifts 1,015 lbs to bench press, he’s lifting explosively and hard, despite the sluggish pace that the loaded barbell is moving.
I lift extremely strict, safe, and with proper form, yes, but there is a limit. Weightlifting itself is a stressful activity, and I accept that.
If your advice was not for powerlifting, then he shouldn’t be relaxing under the eccentric phase. Bodybuilders resist the down movement.
I still don’t see how the kinetic energy explanation goes out the window when there’s no surface to stop upon. It’s not like when you reach the bottom on box squats, the box suddenly takes over. You’re still supporting the load on your back and on your legs. The box is just an indicator. You rest on it for a brief second, yes, but the support is all up to you. You then carry that over to regular squats, along with the same principles.
Strength. And it is relative, but still completely applicable. Will someone who does nothing but squat be able to jump higher than someone who spends his time actually playing basketball and jumping? Probably not. Would that same basketball player jump higher if he added heavy squats in and improved on them? Definitely. I would say in almost instance, in fact.
Yes, it was an intentionally extreme hyperbole in order to make the clarification easier. As long as you have no history of joint problems and you do the forms correctly, I see no reason as to not start heavy. Westside even claims that their routines are for people of all experience levels. I’m not saying that you don’t know what you’re doing or anything like that with your clients. I’m just saying that starting heavy and going from there is what I advocate and feel is safe, as long as form is correct.
And nah, you’re not joking. I have no doubt that the weights you put up in the gym trump me, hehe.
I put it twice because it was in response to the same post, so I figured I’d put it up again for convinience sake. And I said what I think he should do. He should lift for strength. If he was interested in my proposal, he would then ask for more info, and I would present it to him. I don’t just jump in and go “No, don’t listen to him, do THIS: etc.” That’s what I think would be rude. I’d rather discuss and settle the matter first so he has a clear decision of what he should do, rather than a jumble of exercises that he has no idea what to do with because the other guy is throwing something out completely different.
And they should. But I give people the benefit of the doubt that they can tell what I’m recommending by arguing. Then, if they decide that I’m legit, they can ask for more. See above, pretty much.
By responding to your post about the original question, I am addressing the original question.
Yeah call me crazy, but anything coming from a guy who doesn’t know what deadlifts are is very sketchy.
Squats are actually not a very effective means of improving vertical jumping ability and a powerlifting routine is certainly not the best way to improve it. Plyometics, extreme stretching and improved gastroc/soleus strength are however. Explosive power as it applies to coming out of the bottom of a squat is not independent of jumping ability but its an extremely poor indicator of it. While in this case westside training would improve “explosive” power it would not translate to jumping ability. Basically jumping is a fast twitch muscle fiber activity and as such doesn’t proportionally increase with squat.
As an aside please note that I’m not saying squatting won’t help jumping ability but rather that it is not the best approach. I’ll go ahead and state that to avoid the inevitable internet pissing contest about semantics.
As a second aside the above suggestion of “starting heavy and advancing” is ridiculous. If your going to throw out mentions of the “neurology” of weightlifting then statements like this are direct contradictions. When introducing any client, and certainly with clients who are not world class level atheletes it is absolutely the best method to start with light, easily controlled weight. There are several reasons, but you cannot say “start with heavy weight” and then later assume correct form. Correct form is leaned with light weight. Correct form is muscle memory, and if you want to talk neurology its mental pathways. Once your body/mind have a predetermined action pathway ingrained for a particular movement it is three times harder to erase the old and reprogram than to learn the correct way orginally. You start light, learn correct form, and remove the concious mind from the equation. Also starting light (again light/heavy are relative to client levels of fitness and strength) also allows for remodeling of connective tissue before the stress level of said tissue is exceeded.
If you are referring to light/heavy protocols AFTER proper form is learned then I just misread your quotes but agree with you. Once the client is ready to ride the bike take off the training wheels. The “golden age” of strength gains/hypertrophy that are experienced when you first begin to train must be maximized upon by trying to maximally stress the muscle within recovery limits.
Squatting is also a fast-twitch muscle fiber activity. Hence all the talk about “Type II” fibers I’ve made with powerlifting. The discussion was about what he could do with weights to improve it. Never was it said that that’s a replacement for anything else.
I’m not sure who you’re referring to here.
We’ll just agree to disagree on this one…as by the article measuring eccentric and concentric phases in Meters per second AND says “rapid concentric movements” …I will choose the simpler interpretation…What you are saying seems more abstract…although I do understand exactly what you are saying, as to more neurons firing simultaneously to lift heavier weights…On a side note…by feeling the vibration of the bar while spotting a client, you can tell what level of intensity they are doing…regardless of what they tell you, heh.
The box doesn’t take over, but it aids in the release of stored kinetic energy…it says so in the article…when the body LANDS on a surface…it’s the difference between touching the bar to ur chest, dropping quickly and bouncing it off your chest, or not quite touching it at all…not touching the chest in a bench press makes the same amount of weight much more difficult.
I recommended the lighter weights with a rapid concentric movement because it seemed more similar to what he’s already doing…jumping. It just seemed to make sense…as I’ve been squatting heavy for the duration of my training career and have seen little to no improvement in my vertical. Although my legs are MUCH stronger than before…
You have nothing to lose by starting light and going from there. You may even progress in weight on the first day. And you can be completely sure that they do have the form down before going heavy…also, form does suffer, if ever so slightly, as the weight increases in most cases…
I was talking about weights. Sqats are not going to help. Weighted vests with maximal effort jumping in sets of ten will. Calf raises will. Explosive movements are improved only by replicating them either under greater stress (IE more weight) or with greater frequency. Squatting will have little or no effect on vertical jump height. You can add 150 pounds to your squat and you will no noticeable ability to jump heigher. You practice with jumpers shoes and repetitive maximal weighted jumping exercises for 2 months and you can easily add 6-8 inches to an average athletes vertical.
Also without a box to stop downward momentum a squat of equal weight becomes more difficult. This is simple physics.
Reidar, thanks for the link. That’s a lot of articles.
Shit…I know when you talk about weightlifting you’re talking science, what with muscle fibers and all, but I hate it when they DON’T just say something like “Drink 2 ounces of water for every hour of working out.” Yeah, made up numbers, but you get the point.
Reidar, where’d you get that avatar pic?
Well seriously, have you never come across people recommending to “lift heavy and explosively”? How do you interpret that, then?
Yes, it aids, and that is why you do both box squats and regular squats in the same week on their routines. There is kinetic energy involved in normal squats, however.
Well, if you want to use personal experience as an example, the exact opposite happened for me. I was able to grab the rim in basketball a few weeks ago for the first time, after doing no basketball training at all. A year prior to that, I couldn’t. But I don’t like to use personal anecdotes in debates because they only apply to one person.
The lighter weight thing is already covered in a powerlifting routine through DE. Why not get the best of both worlds? That’s the reasoning behind incorporating contrasting methods like DE and ME into one program.
And if form suffers, then it’s too heavy. I’ve been saying that all along. I’m not arguing whether it’s better to start heavy or light, but what I did say is that starting heavy is great as long as the form is correct.
No they’re not. That’s why there are supplemental lifts in addition to the main ones. That’s why box squatting will improve your normal squat and deadlift numbers. Higher repetition in exercises targets slower-twitch fibers. The ones you listed no doubt will help. Squats will too.
That’s the point. It’s supposed to be difficult. I’ve never said otherwise. I said that kinetic energy doesn’t go out the window upon removal of the apparatus.
I got it from an awesome fan-art site. I resized and cropped it. I don’t where the site is now, though.
Yeah, those are good reads. I like westside-barbell.com for the training routines and abcbodybuilding.com for the nutrition info (though I don’t bodybuild anymore). Best of both worlds.
I’m been trying to get in shape, so I run 2 miles before I start lifting weights for an hour. But then my friend told me it’s better to lift weights before you run. Cn anyone tell me which routine is correct?
That would depend. If you run 2 miles, then lift immediately thereafter, then your friend is correct. Your glycogen stores will be depleted, resulting in a subpar session.
Maybe try running in the morning, lifting in the evening. That should work better for you.
Running first?
Here’s a completely non-scientific way of looking at it:
Do the harder one first and then the easier one second. If you find running tires you, do running first. Lift first if you love running.
You should seperate lifting and cardio by six hours ideally (unless you’re doing a quick cardio session for warm-up). They have completely different nutritional requirements.
So i got some protein shake. It gives me the runs like 2 hours later. Is that bad? Am I shitting out all of the wonderful protein and amino acids? Cause I don’t care if I have to shit, I’ll happily do that. But the problem is if I’m not getting any of it because of that.
I got this horrible ass headache while I was benching the other day. It’s like a throbbing pain that originates from the lower back part of my head. Had it for 2 days now but it got a lot better. Is this something common? Did some googling and my symptoms seem to match exertion headaches. I’m about to get it checked out if its still not better by tomorrow cause a fucked up head is serious.